How to make TBN feel on par with other tank Mit.

[Midareyukki]

It's a 25%-scaling MaxHP Shield that gives you back a damaging skill when broken. That's quite strong.
And Oblation is a defensive mitigation, and you get 2 stacks of it. Paired up with TBN and this is honestly pretty cool too.

My personal problem with both TBN and Oblation is that Oblation's got a long cooldown because you're expected to have TBN... but TBN has a cost. Sure, it's refunded, but only if it breaks. And while proper use of TBN ensures it will, the fact that it has a potential to not refund the cost + the fact that the cost implies you can't spam it makes me feel like Oblation's cooldown is a little on the high side.

TBN is strong for what it does, and Oblation is nice for what it does. I assume they can be improved upon, but there isn't much you can do to these skills that won't interfere either with eachother or with other parts of their kit. Even just merely making TBN have a Haima effect isn't a good idea, because it scales off of 25% Max Health, and it can be used on other people. It's not a fluctuating value like crit shields from healers are.

imo if DRK wants sustainability like other tanks, either Abyssal Drain should be a bit more accessible (which will interfere with TBN and Oblation a lot), or Stalwart Soul can give a very small heal when it hits anything. Not "per enemy", just proc on use. And that will interfere with TBN and Oblation also, but at a lesser scale. And let Abyssal Drain be the per-hit heal.

My real question is about Dark Mind. Because it's great to use in magic tankbusters... but what if you're in a physical-heavy fight? You're just gonna use Shadow Wall for hard mitigation? Sure, paired up with other stuff of course... but really, that's the only other answer we got? Better than nothing, I guess, but least Camouflage doesn't just give a Parry boost. But that I agree is just me asking dumb questions and derailing the thread a bit.

[Frostyyy]

It's a 25%-scaling MaxHP Shield that gives you back a damaging skill when broken. That's quite strong.
And Oblation is a defensive mitigation, and you get 2 stacks of it. Paired up with TBN and this is honestly pretty cool too.

While yes TBN itself is decently strong at single bit hit busters, it falls apart in almost every other aspect. You cant use it for autos, or it wont pop, and you need to have 3000 mp just to use it. All of the other tanks have so many free mitigations that can save them and their kits all synergize. DRK has next to 0 self sustain, and adding and extra button back to the rotation for healing will just honestly make the already OGCD heavy job Miserable to play as a tank. Its effectively already high BPM dps that also has to mit as well, which get miserable for any buster that's on a 1 or 2 minute window. During Bursts DRKs are effectively too busy to add anything in for over 12 seconds while they get everything off cooldown. As for oblation and Dark Mind, they both at best filler mitigation. Dark Mind is mostly useless except for a couple busters, and oblation honestly feels like filler. The CD on Oblation being long is fine, but its only 10 percent mit which doesnt exactly do much considering its only active for 10 seconds. Look at warriors Bloodwhetting, which is already super stong, but paired with equillibrium and ITS FREE. Its a better mit that is completely free. Gunbreakers Heart of Corundum is just the best mit in the game due to the 30 percent plus 900 pot heal, but it also has Camo, which is a 20 second 10% mit plus 50 percent parry. its on a 90 second cd which means with the parry its better than both charges of oblation immediately. Half of paladins rotation heal them and they can spam Holy Sheltron since gauge for PLDs is never an issue. To continue "TBN being too strong with a guaranteed refund" I firmly disagree. If you go too hard in burst, you don't have MP suddenly you're screwed because its not a free mit. Its a costly mit that at best is frustrating and stressful to use in its current state.

[Midareyukki]

You cant use it for autos, or it wont pop

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.

To continue "TBN being too strong with a guaranteed refund" I firmly disagree. If you go too hard in burst, you don't have MP suddenly you're screwed because its not a free mit. Its a costly mit that at best is frustrating and stressful to use in its current state.

Well, yes. I agree with you. At no point did I imply that wouldn't be the case. I never even said that "it's too strong with a guaranteed refund". Believe me Frosty, if you think I'm defending TBN, I'm not. Acknowledging its perks doesn't mean I don't see flaws nor that I don't think it's lacking. It very much clearly is, I only pointed out the benefits because THAT'S what will end up causing SE to tell you "We understand, but it still has a stronger value than other tanks do." Especially considering you also have other things past TBN. The issue on DRK is that, as you said, it's got virtually no good sustain, Oblation is piddly and takes too long to recharge, and TBN is only good to cut down on incoming damage, not mitigate nor add to it.

I suggest you re-read exactly what I said. The quote was

you're expected to have TBN... but TBN has a cost. Sure, it's refunded, but only if it breaks.

Meaning I never once said that it was a positive that I agreed to. Or at least, not without nuance. What I meant by that was: "Even if it has a refunded damage when it breaks, it first consumed MP and then it requires you to break the shield. That's two conditional aspects no other tank needs to deal with." And then I go on to say "Even if it does refund it, the mere fact it might not do so feels REALLY BAD".

And you pointed out something pretty good that I didn't even consider. You may get a refund if you break TBN. You do not get anything defensive out of using Shadow skills. And considering you're basically replacing it with your best tool available (again, a 25% scaling shield isn't nothing), it quickly makes the system they implemented REALLY AWKWARD. So you always need to keep tabs on your MP. No other tank needs to deal with this.

The CD on Oblation being long is fine, but its only 10 percent mit which doesnt exactly do much considering its only active for 10 seconds. Look at warriors Bloodwhetting, which is already super stong, but paired with equillibrium and ITS FREE. Its a better mit that is completely free.

Yeah, pretty much. Like, what I mean by "Oblation has perks" is that you have a 10% mitigation on 2 charges and also have access to TBN. But obviously there are problems with this. Two off the top of my head:
1 - I reiterate: have access to TBN. Not "You also have TBN". Because, cool, you can use TBN, but there are detriments to using it, and that's a problem. Meaning you cannot consider TBN as always being there for you to complement Oblation.
2 - Which is what I wanted to get to in that other post, it's too piddly and on a long cooldown, which does not match the rest of the kit.

That's why I said "for what it does". Oblation's a nice cooldown... in a vaccum. TBN is also a nice cooldown, again, in a vaccum. In the way DRK is designed, those two have their uses, but are clunky. And when you compare DRK with other tanks, DRK falls behind. Even if other tanks don't have access to 2 mitigations, none of them have a skill with a cost/a skill with a huge cooldown/a skill that can gimp DPS/a skill that if you DPS hard enough with no incoming damage to break a shield will make it problematic when you DO need it in the future. No matter how good a 25% scaling shield is, it alone cannot compete with that. Especially not with a cost on it. No other tank has anything THIS nuanced. And Oblation isn't enough to complement it, no matter how much you have 2 charges or it being decoupled from the skill may be.

Arguably the most "feelsbad" skill in the game is Clemency, which is a GCD that eats up MP. DRK might have the saving grace of at least TBN being more useable than Clemency, but that's not by much!

[Frostyyy]

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.


That's why I said "for what it does". Oblation's a nice cooldown... in a vaccum. TBN is also a nice cooldown, again, in a vaccum. In the way DRK is designed, those two have their uses, but are clunky. And when you compare DRK with other tanks, DRK falls behind. Even if other tanks don't have access to 2 mitigations, none of them have a skill with a cost/a skill with a huge cooldown/a skill that can gimp DPS/a skill that if you DPS hard enough with no incoming damage to break a shield will make it problematic when you DO need it in the future. No matter how good a 25% scaling shield is, it alone cannot compete with that. Especially not with a cost on it. No other tank has anything THIS nuanced. And Oblation isn't enough to complement it, no matter how much you have 2 charges or it being decoupled from the skill may be.

Arguably the most "feelsbad" skill in the game is Clemency, which is a GCD that eats up MP. DRK might have the saving grace of at least TBN being more useable than Clemency, but that's not by much!

My apologies if I came off a little strong, I agree with a lot of what you said but the issue is that DRK doesnt have a button that it can really hit for Autos besides oblation, but often 10 percent doesnt like enough esp only for only 10 seconds at a time. I feel this is why they added parry to camo, making camo honestly one of my favorite mitigations in the game. If you can only realistically save TBNs for busters then there is no reason for it to be on a 7 second CD. As for the oblation comments, I agree with you completely, the main issue with oblation is that its on DRK. It would fit into any other tanks kit much much much better. While its fine that oblation is ok, DRK needs something great because as it stands the best mits on DRK is Rampart and Shadow Wall which are essentially shared with the other tanks. In my opinion all they need to do with DRK is consolidate the kit so its not a complete mess. I would rather have 1 strong cd, 1 ok ish cd, than 1 terrible cd, 1 ok cd, and a cd that feels like a waste most of the time. My apologies for cutting most of your post, I did read it all, the forum word cap is just low.

[Saraide]

Yes, well, that's what I meant by "And while proper use of TBN ensures it will [break]". Using it on autos is not proper use of it. And while that in itself is a disadvantage, it's also not what it's meant to be used for. Now, that doesn't mean I'm against having some form of mitigation for it, it's just that the current design of TBN isn't what you'd use to mitigate auto-attacks. You'd need to look at something else. Meanwhile a shield that scales off of your HP? That's a pretty big shield, so in the instances where you DO use it, it is quite strong.

What? Why wouldnt autos be a proper use of it? Bosses hit pretty hard with autos.

[Frostyyy]

What? Why wouldnt autos be a proper use of it? Bosses hit pretty hard with autos.

Because of the inconsistency for TBN pops. Most of the time the boss only Autos 3-4 times before going into a major mech, to then auto 15 seconds later, which means if you have a great internet connection and timing you can get a TBN to break on autos consistently, but if you dont have great internet the snapshotting on TBN will cause you to miss an auto or two which 99 percent of the time will cause your TBN to be left with like maybe 1 percent left on the shield and you get nothing but depression, frustration, and disappointment lol.

[Saraide]

Because of the inconsistency for TBN pops. Most of the time the boss only Autos 3-4 times before going into a major mech, to then auto 15 seconds later, which means if you have a great internet connection and timing you can get a TBN to break on autos consistently, but if you dont have great internet the snapshotting on TBN will cause you to miss an auto or two which 99 percent of the time will cause your TBN to be left with like maybe 1 percent left on the shield and you get nothing but depression, frustration, and disappointment lol.

Oh I have used TBN a lot. What I take issue with is saying autos arent proper use of TBN because it's just straight up wrong.