Paladin Reworks??

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I can find a lot of streamers, FC members of mine, podcasts and whatever that disagree. Let's just say it's controversial, because I never met those people and you obviously never met mine. My point still stands on the dev's interest in having a two minute burst meta.

I think people that complain about it are people that despise the homogeneization of classes, but that has little to do with that meta, and more with the actual job mechanics. Ranged physical have very different gameplays while functioning on the same core principles. A job's identity is not related to it having a 1, 2 or 3 minute bursts, but those are just my two cents, and we can disagree on that.

And then again, I can hear the concerns, I understand them to some extent... but why worry so much about something that will happen and we have no control on yet ? Let's just wait and see, and if it's bad, then we'll speak. Right now, it seems pretty pointless to me.

[Mithron]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...en-t-enjoyable

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Job-Diversity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G7lZlMAYaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLif0vuZIss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9nuHpBPM4

Just a few examples.

[Launched]

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

[FireMage]

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

Boring is subjective, not an argument. And restrictive? Let's talk about how restricted classes were that were off meta due to buff timing. Oh is that too hard?

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

2 minute raid buffs are boring and restrictive, and it really sucks that PLD is being reworked to fit that instead of letting it be a little bit unique.

Then again, class identity, class uniqueness, is not necessarily linked to it having a different burst, or even a burst at all... Class identity is its aesthetics, lore, rotation, cooldowns, etc. How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all ?

The reason tanks are "more" similar to each other (way less right now than they were at ShB, so maybe they actually do care about class identity), is because they are way easier to play than DPSs, and should be. Therefore, there is a limit to how different you can be, since something bizarre would be considered too hard by many tank players. And please, stop pretending we're not already a flavour of WAR, we're way closer to them than we are of GNBs... The only reason you think it's not the case is because we have two bursts, but if you like playing PLD because you like to have two "bursts", aka 75% "burst" time, let's just say that's a strange reason to like a job.

I kinda get y'all dislike the two minutes meta, and I get there are famous people that dislike it too, but as somebody put it earlier in this thread, people that don't mind about it won't take the time to argue against it, as they are not even aware that there is a controversy around it, as I was. That's why we can't get any statistical idea of what the proportion of people disliking it is. Ergo why I already tried to discuss class identity instead of discussing about that.

The 2-minute meta is the current meta, and they don't want to change it, at least until the next expansion, or even the one after. If it ever becomes a problem so obvious everyone has heard from it. Because yeah, Mr Happy disliking it and some streamers agreeing with him is not everyone... Why would we spend so much time arguing about something that can't be changed ? That can only lead to more anger and resentment, and frankly, that's just a waste of your time and mine all around.

And someone that argues against the two minutes meta, and gets angry because GNB has been "murdered" since it got a third bullet is... yeah, proves my point about tanks being kept easy and braindead by their own players. Clearly not the argument you wanted to make it to be.

inb4 : "just stop answering if it's a waste of your time", well, yeah, probably what I'm gonna do

[Mikey_R]

Then again, class identity, class uniqueness, is not necessarily linked to it having a different burst, or even a burst at all... Class identity is its aesthetics, lore, rotation, cooldowns, etc. How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all ?

At the absolute core of any DPS you have 2 choices, Sustained DPS or Burst DPS. The 2 minute meta has killed of sustained DPS and this is what people are saying when they say job identity or uniqueness or however they want to say it is being killed. I am of the opinion that every job does play differently, but they all play differently in the confines of being a burst DPS. We will soon have no sustained DPS jobs left (unless you want to count healers, but healers already have issues there).

I kinda get y'all dislike the two minutes meta, and I get there are famous people that dislike it too, but as somebody put it earlier in this thread, people that don't mind about it won't take the time to argue against it, as they are not even aware that there is a controversy around it, as I was. That's why we can't get any statistical idea of what the proportion of people disliking it is. Ergo why I already tried to discuss class identity instead of discussing about that.

This might just be my ignorance showing, however, every time someone brings up the fact they dislike the 2 minute meta, you always have more people agree than disagree. You would have thought, if you enjoyed it, you would want to say something. You never know, you might have a thought that the 2 minute meta opposers didn't think of, which causes them to think. These discussions need to happen and pros and cons need to be built up. Is everyone going to agree? Probably not, but that shouldn't stop the discussions from happening.

[Mithron]

How can you even argue that the two minutes rotation homogeneizes classes when NIN, MNK, and DRG exist at the same time and are not similar at all?

Because every expansion before this one, many classes had different times of burst windows. Some were 80s. Some 90s. Some 70s. If you tried to fit everything into NIN's Trick Attack on every single job, it was a massive DPS loss and destroyed most jobs' rotation. This makes the jobs feel more unique and fun to play, because different timers means different play styles.

Why would we spend so much time arguing about something that can't be changed?

Because this game makes billions of dollars. "Can't" is not something that applies to developers who make billions of dollars.

[Kalaam]

Also, if the situation became like this, it means it can change again. It's not like people suddenly realized that the game was always on a 2 minute burst/raid buff rotation meta since launch.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

This might just be my ignorance showing, however, every time someone brings up the fact they dislike the 2 minute meta, you always have more people agree than disagree. You would have thought, if you enjoyed it, you would want to say something. You never know, you might have a thought that the 2 minute meta opposers didn't think of, which causes them to think. These discussions need to happen and pros and cons need to be built up. Is everyone going to agree? Probably not, but that shouldn't stop the discussions from happening.

And everytime I tried to argue about it, all I got was "everyone hates the 2 minute meta, look MrHappy hates it, and those two other people on the forum too". I don't want to play the victim here, but nobody actually contradicted any point I made previously in this thread in favor of the 2min meta, I always get sent back to this.

I don't dislike sustained dps classes, nor do I dislike 70s burst, or even 90s burst, or whatever. What I'm arguing is that when you have different burst timers, some classes are mechanically disadvantaged for some fights. For example, if at 1:40, the boss becomes untargetable, and comes back at 1:55 the 90s, 20s-long burst class will lose much more dps than 2-minute burst classes, which will cause imbalance, and SE will get hate for it. I don't mind having sustained dps classes, but you can't have differently timed burst classes and expect fights to be fair to all classes.

Because every expansion before this one, many classes had different times of burst windows. Some were 80s. Some 90s. Some 70s. If you tried to fit everything into NIN's Trick Attack on every single job, it was a massive DPS loss and destroyed most jobs' rotation. This makes the jobs feel more unique and fun to play, because different timers means different play styles.

Same thing, since some classes will combine better together, because their bursts are aligned, they will have more dps than any other combination. That combination will become mandatory in wanna-be hardcore raid parties, some classes will be excluded, much more severely than MCH is right now, and the balance will be a mess. Sacrificing the "my burst is uniquely timed" part of a class "identity" for preventing such meta is pretty worthwhile, to me.

Because this game makes billions of dollars. "Can't" is not something that applies to developers who make billions of dollars.

Them making millions (yes, millions, making even one billion with a game is pretty hard, you know ?) is absolutely unrelated to them being able or willing to listen to forums, especially on controversial subjects where a consensus is far, very far from obtained, however vocal they may be. I've seen and read more people ask for changes for the PLD than people wanting it to stay the same, except on this forum, so yeah, you're not the majority, and therefore, they won't listen to you, especially when most of the work seems already done. If there IS an issue after the rework, and the majority of people agree on that, then you can discuss changes and so on, but right now, it's pointless.

Also, if the situation became like this, it means it can change again. It's not like people suddenly realized that the game was always on a 2 minute burst/raid buff rotation meta since launch.

And then again, I'm sure it will, if the general consensus is that the two-minute meta is bad. But if there are people like me that raid and have social interactions with all kinds of players, from casual to hardcore, playing with them daily, roulettes and so on, and never heard of any complaint about it, chances are you're not the majority. That doesn't mean you should stay quiet, but that means you can't just use "everyone knows that 2-minute meta is bad" as an argument.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Sorry but your point is irrelevant in regards to times affecting 90second burst jobs, as fight design in ShB allowed for fights where burst job like Warrior and Dark Knight to have a stronger showing where there was more downtime during fights, versus fights with full uptime gave sustain jobs like Paladin had a stronger showing. Then GNB being more hybrid of the two types, but leaning more to sustain.

Overall having various buffs windows was not a bad thing, allowed for creativity, allowed for more engaging planning, and allowed for both burst and sustain damage type jobs to be effective. 2 minute buff meta is more punishing, 1 death can throw everything out of alignment, having certain mechanics happen during buff windows can lead to janky alignment issues, p7s for example where some fail to hold buffs before being yeeted up at the 6minute buff window, while others don't, causing a weaker 6 minute and subsequent 2 minute windows. While before this 2 minute meta it wasn't as bad since you could still line up buffs with trick attack after deaths or misaligned buff, so you don't lose a use.