Paladin doesn't suck, 2 minute rotations just ruined combat

[Kalaam]

He is the only one benefitting from it, it derails the conversation and we end up going in circles and frustrated rather than having any kind of interresting conversation. Answer him in DMs rather !

[Mithron]

He is the only one benefitting from it, it derails the conversation and we end up going in circles and frustrated rather than having any kind of interresting conversation. Answer him in DMs rather !

Publicly humiliating him is a past time for us on these forums now. It's always fun to see how many people destroy his lack of logic.

The two minute meta is arguably the root cause behind why job balance is the worst it's been since Gordias, and we most definitely need to be telling developers our thoughts on it.

[Kalaam]

Publicly humiliating him is a past time for us on these forums now. It's always fun to see how many people destroy his lack of logic.

The two minute meta is arguably the root cause behind why job balance is the worst it's been since Gordias, and we most definitely need to be telling developers our thoughts on it.

You don't understand, there is no "publicly humiliating" a troll. That is exactly what they want, for everyone to pay attention to them. Even our conversation right now is a win for him. The more angry you get, the harder you try to prove him wrong the more fun he has because he doesn't care and knows he says crap, he just wants attention

But yes the meta rn is a big issue

[Mithron]

You don't understand, there is no "publicly humiliating" a troll. That is exactly what they want, for everyone to pay attention to them. Even our conversation right now is a win for him. The more angry you get, the harder you try to prove him wrong the more fun he has because he doesn't care and knows he says crap, he just wants attention

Who cares what he likes or wants? As long as everyone knows he's an invalid cretin, he's lost. Attention is an irrelevant currency, and his failures allow us to bolster our points on what matters while unifying our thoughts to push this game into a better direction.

[Kalaam]

That's what I mean by "ignore him and move on".

[Ransu]

Different rotation sure? but a lot of them just play as a build up burst, they have a very similar feel to each other a lot of the time.

Its been like this since they introduced job gauges. Tuning buffs to be in a 2 minute window didn't change that. Honestly overall nothing has really changed outside of they just decided to line everything up in a 2 minute window instead of spreading it around with 30s/60s/90s windows. Do I like the 2 minute windows? Meh, not really. Do I think its "ruining" combat. No, absolutely not. In the grand scheme of things its changed absolutely nothing and really only impacts people who hyper focus on numbers they weren't supposed to see in the first place. (This isn't a dig at parsers btw. I'm fine with them, but the point stands that if parsers didn't exist no one would really notice the 2 minute window stuff because the game overall plays the same as it did in SB/ShB.)

The only thing annoying about the 2 minute burst window is certain jobs rotations are slightly awkward because you have to set them up in a way where they line up with two minute windows like mnk double phoenix or drg not going into life of the dragon phase until right before their 3rd jump is available to incorporate getting to the second life of the dragon phase quicker, but I don't really view those as bad things and more so just quirks in their rotations that are not even necessary to do. You'll still parse within reason even if you don't do those things.

At an absolute base, a job can be either sustained DPS (defined as their DPS not fluctuating much throughout a fight) or a burst DPS (defined as having short periods where they deal massive damage to bring their average DPS up). The 2 minute meta absolutely solidifies the burst DPS as they are the ones who can capitalise on the extra buffs the most. This is shown in the fact PLD (Sustained DPS) is being changed to fit the burst meta, Monk was changed from a historically sustained DPS job to a burst DPS in EW specifically to fit the 2 minute meta they wanted to bring.

The whole point here is that you have killed off a whole branch of potential job design just from the 2 minute meta.

MNK actually still is very much a sustained dps. Its pretty clear the job was designed to fall outside of the 2 minute windows given how its blitz phase works. People just found a quirky rotation by delaying blitz with double phoenix to make it work.

[Absurdity]

Even without any parsing or optimization it is very much noticeable how most jobs were shoehorned into a 1 minute/2minute burst, and how incredibly unengaging it often ends up being. Having actual dps numbers just showed us how badly the jobs perform that don't adhere to the meta by design.

[Rithy255]

Its been like this since they introduced job gauges. Tuning buffs to be in a 2 minute window didn't change that. Honestly overall nothing has really changed outside of they just decided to line everything up in a 2 minute window instead of spreading it around with 30s/60s/90s windows. Do I like the 2 minute windows? Meh, not really. Do I think its "ruining" combat. No, absolutely not. In the grand scheme of things its changed absolutely nothing and really only impacts people who hyper focus on numbers they weren't supposed to see in the first place. (This isn't a dig at parsers btw. I'm fine with them, but the point stands that if parsers didn't exist no one would really notice the 2 minute window stuff because the game overall plays the same as it did in SB/ShB.)

The only thing annoying about the 2 minute burst window is certain jobs rotations are slightly awkward because you have to set them up in a way where they line up with two minute windows like mnk double phoenix or drg not going into life of the dragon phase until right before their 3rd jump is available to incorporate getting to the second life of the dragon phase quicker, but I don't really view those as bad things and more so just quirks in their rotations that are not even necessary to do. You'll still parse within reason even if you don't do those things.

Sure theirs been burst, Buffs, ect, a lot of gauge jobs ect. I don't think that's a bad thing the issue is how important the "burst" is now, weren't at the level they are now and the idea of a Job having two "mini bursts" such as Paladin is alien now because of how 2 minute limits job design, You have to admit they've gone way harder on bursts in job design then they have before.

Every Raid buff being under 2 minutes makes raids buffs somewhat useless? in my mind theirs no real point in having every raid buff on 2 minutes... might as well not have them in the first place, I liked how raid buffs had some synergy or you had to think about if you should hold them or not to line up with other buffs ect, making good use of raid buffs should be rewarded not this thoughtless action of "press raid buff button every 2 minutes" the buffs themselves used to have different synergy and uses, trick attack worked pretty well with minute bursts and left ninja as more of a support DPS with a strong defining raid buff. Now it's kinda like every other melees raid buff it just plays a part into everyones massive 2 minute burst.

Its led to PLD's general design being scrapped or reworked into something that a lot of people don't want. If we want another Job it will be yet again designed around 2 minutes limiting so much about the job itself.

Might as well remove raid buffs because they're uninteresting in their current state, leave some things like DNC partner, astro cards, Dragon sight, bard songs. "click raid buff in your 2 minute window" will never be interesting or have any reason other then keeping some jobs "selfish"

[FireMage]

A different rotation doesn't always lead to a different gameplay loop

It quite literally does

The two minute meta is arguably the root cause behind why job balance is the worst it's been since Gordias, and we most definitely need to be telling developers our thoughts on it.

Job balance is currently far better than it ever was in HW...and you have the gall to accuse me of trolling yet you come up with lies like that

[Shurrikhan]

How is limiting job design a good thing? (limited under 2 minutes)

The 2-minute template limits job design (i.e., on paper) but not job gameplay (i.e., in practice).

Breaking from a single timing template while retaining similar levels of interdependence means that one ends up playing a comp, rather than a job, if going for optimal performance. Want to play a 90s buffer? Well, then you'll need 90s exploiters. (Which ultimately means you're stuck with a 90s comp. Fellow 90s jobs aren't doing so hot this tier? Then you're out, too.)

That is what led to the Stormblood "jank" along the lines of "Want to play Monk optimally? Then you'll want a fully physical party paced around Brotherhood (or a RDM for your caster if you're undergeared relative to your party anyways), solo-healer, and to avoid Paladin. Don't have such a party? Well, then I guess you'd better swap back to whatever part you fill of the Double-Ranged meta, pleb."

Not building around a 2-minute meta creates room for differentiation, but since all differentiation in interdependent comps will quickly boil down to the least common denominators among them and dispensing with anything that doesn't then fit into those accordant boxes, it can mean less room, too, for playing what job you want.

Will that affect all content? No. But if giving the matter than much lenience, then the 2-minute meta likewise becomes just a rough guideline, rather than some oppressive constraint. And that's the key here. It's not that the template is 120s or 90s or 150s, nor even that it's singular (you'd consolidate as much as you could to a single timing anyways, you'd just then have jobs optimally playable only within far more particular contexts). The core matter is simply whether a job has a decent amount of depth/fun available to it between bursts and that the content itself is so uninvolving/unevolving that everything will devolve to a timed comp, because what else is there to worry about than minimum clear time / maximum long-term throughput rates?

The problem with the 2-minute meta isn't so much that everyone hits "Go!" at the same time (you did that anyways, too, in a 90s comp, etc.) and wants their damage condensed around those points (we always have even before merging to a single timing tempalte), but rather that

1. the mini-burst windows are comparatively uninteresting, mostly because few jobs generate any sense of poly-rhythm (largely due to the banking margins / LCM counts on exploiting CDs and the power of the major windows' multipliers and because there's no intentional desync that'd force decisions between immediate and window exploitative use, since that'd be decried as "ugly" and/or "obviously dysfunctional"),
   
   
2. there is never anything in a typical XIV encounter to warrant any other behavior than pressing "Go" rhythmically, and that problem of shallow/stagnant encounter design remains regardless of whether one plays a 60s, 90s, 120s, or 150s comp (since you're holding each other back if mixing or matching anything but 60s with 120s), and
   
   
3. most jobs have little to spice themselves up in the periods between bursts (our damage-lulls lull us to sleep).