Paladin doesn't suck, 2 minute rotations just ruined combat

[FireMage]

Nope, 2min is a good thing. The only way to break buff timings is to have buffs happen all over the place

[Rithy255]

Nope, 2min is a good thing. The only way to break buff timings is to have buffs happen all over the place

How is limiting job design a good thing? (limited under 2 minutes)

[Shurrikhan]

How is limiting job design a good thing? (limited under 2 minutes)

The 2-minute template limits job design (i.e., on paper) but not job gameplay (i.e., in practice).

Breaking from a single timing template while retaining similar levels of interdependence means that one ends up playing a comp, rather than a job, if going for optimal performance. Want to play a 90s buffer? Well, then you'll need 90s exploiters. (Which ultimately means you're stuck with a 90s comp. Fellow 90s jobs aren't doing so hot this tier? Then you're out, too.)

That is what led to the Stormblood "jank" along the lines of "Want to play Monk optimally? Then you'll want a fully physical party paced around Brotherhood (or a RDM for your caster if you're undergeared relative to your party anyways), solo-healer, and to avoid Paladin. Don't have such a party? Well, then I guess you'd better swap back to whatever part you fill of the Double-Ranged meta, pleb."

Not building around a 2-minute meta creates room for differentiation, but since all differentiation in interdependent comps will quickly boil down to the least common denominators among them and dispensing with anything that doesn't then fit into those accordant boxes, it can mean less room, too, for playing what job you want.

Will that affect all content? No. But if giving the matter than much lenience, then the 2-minute meta likewise becomes just a rough guideline, rather than some oppressive constraint. And that's the key here. It's not that the template is 120s or 90s or 150s, nor even that it's singular (you'd consolidate as much as you could to a single timing anyways, you'd just then have jobs optimally playable only within far more particular contexts). The core matter is simply whether a job has a decent amount of depth/fun available to it between bursts and that the content itself is so uninvolving/unevolving that everything will devolve to a timed comp, because what else is there to worry about than minimum clear time / maximum long-term throughput rates?

The problem with the 2-minute meta isn't so much that everyone hits "Go!" at the same time (you did that anyways, too, in a 90s comp, etc.) and wants their damage condensed around those points (we always have even before merging to a single timing tempalte), but rather that

1. the mini-burst windows are comparatively uninteresting, mostly because few jobs generate any sense of poly-rhythm (largely due to the banking margins / LCM counts on exploiting CDs and the power of the major windows' multipliers and because there's no intentional desync that'd force decisions between immediate and window exploitative use, since that'd be decried as "ugly" and/or "obviously dysfunctional"),
   
   
2. there is never anything in a typical XIV encounter to warrant any other behavior than pressing "Go" rhythmically, and that problem of shallow/stagnant encounter design remains regardless of whether one plays a 60s, 90s, 120s, or 150s comp (since you're holding each other back if mixing or matching anything but 60s with 120s), and
   
   
3. most jobs have little to spice themselves up in the periods between bursts (our damage-lulls lull us to sleep).

[Eisi]

^And that's why there should be no timed party damage buffs at all.

[Eisi]

Calm down there Satan, not everybody wants to be a SAM or BLM without utility.

This is so funny, cause I 100% agree with you and yet also 100% agree with my post. But nice strawman!

Here's my post again:

^And that's why there should be no timed party damage buffs at all.

So if it's a timed party-wide buff but not to damage, it's cool!

If it's a single party member timed damage buff, it's cool!

If it's a sustained, constant party damage buff, it's also cool!

Just a little bit good will and less fear. Also a bit more creativity pls.

[Shurrikhan]

^And that's why there should be no timed party damage buffs at all.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

_____________

This is exactly my point. Two min burst is here to stay, and going to such great lengths to change and adjust jobs is a telling sign imo. The older jobs are getting outdated do to the shear fact that the newer jobs have been setting the example for years now. It's no longer viable to have jobs designed with ARR, Heavensward, and Stromblood blue prints. Like it or not....savage and ultimate set the stage for how jobs are designed. When you have to perform at such high levels, your job has to just work under heavy load.

Design flaws are starting to show with certain jobs:

Monk - Pretty much nearly unfixable in it's original state and was the outlier for literal years. Monk was it's on worst enemy with RNG, and it's ridiculous amount of bloat that nobody used. Six sided star, tornado kick (pre ogcd), anatman, one ilm punch, stances, greased lightning.

These issues actually have/had nothing to do with the 2-minute formula, though, and little even to do with later day job design trends (beyond portion of damage that can exploit buffs; even portion of damage exploiting buffs hasn't much changed, since the modifiers were greater back in the day). Nor were they worsened by it. (See/expand below.)

While we couldn't hold onto a TFC specifically for raid buffs, we still tended to generate multiple within any full raid burst, so the banking margin was more the issue than the RNG when it comes to 2-minute meta play.
It took only 4 GCDs to get up to speed (essentially 3 in late Stormblood due to WT-RoW), so original GL wasn't uniquely slowing down raid burst.

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

[Sqwall]

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.[/HB]

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

I was comparing the end game to the newer better designed classes to how outdated the old ones were in terms of shear playability. The ones that I mentioned were very strong candidates of needing rework.

[Eisi]

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

_____________

Can someone translate this please? I assume you are saying that the pre-Endwalker model was better. If I understand this correctly it doesn't adress what I said.

[Shurrikhan]

Can someone translate this please?

You claimed that we should just remove all raid buffs... because "^" (carrot / up arrow).

Normally, I would think that would mean you were pointing to a prior post or, at a stretch, to the OP. But neither the prior post nor the OP give rationales that would warrant the removal of raid-buffs.

On the off chance you were pointing to the post immediately prior to yours, which was mine, I explained why my reasoning given (that all raid-buffs push players towards a single rhythm of CDs to buff damage and damage to exploit those buffs, regardless of whether that be a 2-minute interval or not / we've done this since NIN anyways) doesn't mean that you have to get rid of raid buffs.

Instead, it simply means that you have to design fights within a particular balance of allowing for multiple compositions (no "need X comp to avoid wiping") while still including reasons to take non-meta jobs (i.e., jobs that are outside of just whatever rhythm creates the best total DPS in dummy fight scenarios) through minor DPS checks that do not match those meta comps' CD rhythm.