Please add loot griefing to "Prohibited Activities"

[Themarvin]

You can easy find the player after there is a log you can check on in game, just report him for it, because it is bad ethics and actually do count as obstruction as well in ways.

[technole]

Loot griefing was always reportable when there were statements made in-chat of who would get what, and then having someone negate what was agreed on. Like someone would just put in the macro what people wanted and can just run it again when loot drops. This was back in the day in Coil when there were no pity buys or 'books' like today. Like you could run a turn for weeks or a lot during farm period and still not get a particular piece like hands.

[Gemina]

Hey, so this is a suggestion/complaint thread because of something that happened yesterday in party finder and it's not the first time i've seen it happen.

Basically yesterday evening I was doing P8S (usual weekly 2 chests) and the random weapon that dropped was GNB, we had a GNB is our party who already had the 635 weapon. Therefore he couldn't roll on it so I tried rolling, so did other players in the party.

The GNB then proceeded to swap his weapon to another, delete his 635 weapon so he could roll "Need" on the savage weapon and grief the 7 players who tried to roll for it.

This is obviously a griefing tactic, the player then trolled us in chat and was ofc proud of himself; I went through the "Prohibited Activities" FFXIV page didn't see a specific mention of this tactic that has existed for years, of course this counts as "griefing" but I think this tactic should be more known and definitely made clear that this is punishable.

Never posted here before, made sure not to mention any name and respect the rules;

EDIT: it's a suggestion thread to change the loot system or make it a bannable offense to do what the GNB did, not just being salty for no reason;
EDIT2: most player from the party including myself have already reported the GNB
also https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6128882

Can someone enlighten me on how the GNB benefits from this at all. I get the grieving of other players, and understand that it can be done just to be an a-hole, but I am curious if there is any technical benefit to doing this. Also, why do these duties drop specific weapons? Shouldn't they just drop the ilv weapon coffers like the EX trials do?

The only thing I can think of that even remotely explains the actions of the GNB is a gatekeeping mentality that has these kind of players dictate that you can only have the weapon if you are playing the job that can equip it, so he strips the other players of their right to greed on the item. This does not pardon the GNB's actions. I'm just thinking of possible motivations to act in such a way.

I regret to inform that the GNB didn't do anything wrong in terms of the ToS, and this is a matter of morale and etiquette. The seven players in this group acknowledge this, and reported the GNB. That's really as far as it goes. He won't receive any disciplinary action, and the ToS won't be updated. The dev team is more than likely to address it at the technical level, and just prevent players from being able to do it. This is why it is still good to report. Don't report to get someone in trouble. Report to inform the GMs about shenanigans players are pulling.

The seven of you did the right thing.

[Conadrium]

I regret to inform that the GNB didn't do anything wrong in terms of the ToS, and this is a matter of morale and etiquette. The seven players in this group acknowledge this, and reported the GNB. That's really as far as it goes. He won't receive any disciplinary action, and the ToS won't be updated. The dev team is more than likely to address it at the technical level, and just prevent players from being able to do it. This is why it is still good to report. Don't report to get someone in trouble. Report to inform the GMs about shenanigans players are pulling.

The seven of you did the right thing.

It’s funny how many people on the forums who talk about the TOS clearly haven’t read it.

“In Final Fantasy XIV, obstructive behavior that has an adverse impact on other users' gameplay, or operation of service, is prohibited. Such behavior violates the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement and Square Enix Account Terms of Use. If a violation is confirmed as a result of our investigations, Square Enix may, in its sole discretion,“

That is the VERY first paragraph of the TOS and it’s what’s referred to as a catch all. It covers all situations because it’s impossible to predict and list every way someone can be a jerk. It would boggle the mind that this would not qualify. It’s clearly meant to have an adverse effect on others and is clearly documented in game.

[Zebraoracle]

Imagine if that GNB was actioned and had the weapon he won from this deleted so he had to go back to his low ilvl weapon lmao

[jimmybe29]

Imagine if that GNB was actioned and had the weapon he won from this deleted so he had to go back to his low ilvl weapon lmao

unfortunately, he'd just buy a new one from books or ask his static to go for 1 more run to give him all the loot since he's otp gunblade and already has 10 weekly kills, would be fun tho

Can someone enlighten me on how the GNB benefits from this at all. I get the grieving of other players, and understand that it can be done just to be an a-hole, but I am curious if there is any technical benefit to doing this. Also, why do these duties drop specific weapons? Shouldn't they just drop the ilv weapon coffers like the EX trials do?

As i've said and shown earlier in the thread (page2) the player admitted to doing it for fun, to grief other players and he was proud of himself, he doesn't gain anything from it other than the satisfaction of being toxic.
The loot that drops from the 4th boss of a tier in savage : 1 weapon coffer, 1 torso coffer, 1 random weapon (can be need or greed depending on job), 1 mount, 1 orchestrion and 1 minion - It's always this
the random weapon is kinda like a bonus since it's complete RNG, just like in Extreme duties, unfortunately it's a weekly reward system so it cannot be farmed like extremes and is very welcome if it's one you can make use of and very lucky for you if it's the job you're playing since it's a guaranteed 100% roll for you.

Very unlikely a GM will deal with the problem but two solutions are present. 1. Form or join static 2. Start your own PF group and set loot to master looter (note: Players who are giant childern will rage about this one.)

This is a solution that requires a drastic change in the way I would play the game, just for 1 small thing that can be changed around 4th boss loot or obviously show that this toxic behavior that can be punished.
Also, no one fills a lootmaster PF, it's impossible especially in P8S because of how scarce it is. People can grief week 2 of raid if they're lucky and many more players who are playing solely in pf.
So yeah, it's not a solution at all

[Gemina]

It’s funny how many people on the forums who talk about the TOS clearly haven’t read it.

“In Final Fantasy XIV, obstructive behavior that has an adverse impact on other users' gameplay, or operation of service, is prohibited. Such behavior violates the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement and Square Enix Account Terms of Use. If a violation is confirmed as a result of our investigations, Square Enix may, in its sole discretion,“

That is the VERY first paragraph of the TOS and it’s what’s referred to as a catch all. It covers all situations because it’s impossible to predict and list every way someone can be a jerk. It would boggle the mind that this would not qualify. It’s clearly meant to have an adverse effect on others and is clearly documented in game.

I am well aware of ToS. I don't place myself under legal contractual obligations without knowing what those are.

That said, what the GNB did as far as I understand is discard his weapon in order to roll need on the same GNB weapon. There is nothing in the ToS that prevents him from doing either of those. It makes zero sense, sure. If he wanted, he could do this week after week after week. Even if this player explicitly states that he is doing it to be toxic and to grief players, the matter will still need to be investigated using data the GMs compile themselves from the servers. Your own screenshots and what have you really won't hold a lot of water.

Look bud, I get it. You would think good common decency wins these cases, but it doesn't. The term "catch all" only serves to protect the distributor from the subscriber, not the other way around. This doesn't mean to be a defeatist in submission to reality; it means that the playerbase is fully capable of resolving situations of unrest on their own.

We can't scream ToS every time another player is being an arsehole. Every players has very specific rights that the ToS covers that have to be immediately addressed if they are in violation: doxxing, privacy, data theft, denial of service without cause, etc. SE goes through great lengths to make sure every player is protected from these violations. This is honestly petty nickel and dime stuff. Again, the dev team and GMs really rely on players to resolve these situations on their own.

[Gemina]

As i've said and shown earlier in the thread (page2) the player admitted to doing it for fun, to grief other players and he was proud of himself, he doesn't gain anything from it other than the satisfaction of being toxic.
The loot that drops from the 4th boss of a tier in savage : 1 weapon coffer, 1 torso coffer, 1 random weapon (can be need or greed depending on job), 1 mount, 1 orchestrion and 1 minion - It's always this
the random weapon is kinda like a bonus since it's complete RNG, just like in Extreme duties, unfortunately it's a weekly reward system so it cannot be farmed like extremes and is very welcome if it's one you can make use of and very lucky for you if it's the job you're playing since it's a guaranteed 100% roll for you.

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't sure since I don't run current savage duties, and just trying to put myself in the perspective of the GNB in this situation. Again though, the admission doesn't carry much weight. The report coming from every single other player in that group does much more to warrant an investigation by the GMs. Hopefully they will make a change that prevents this from happening with future encounters, but feel it might be difficult without taking away the greed privilege players currently have.

[jimmybe29]

Thanks for the explanation. I wasn't sure since I don't run current savage duties, and just trying to put myself in the perspective of the GNB in this situation. Again though, the admission doesn't carry much weight. The report coming from every single other player in that group does much more to warrant an investigation by the GMs. Hopefully they will make a change that prevents this from happening with future encounters, but feel it might be difficult without taking away the greed privilege players currently have.

That's the point of this thread so far, it's a suggestion thread to either change loot system to prevent this griefing tactic, or make it clear that is this a punishable offense in "Prohibited Activities" that would count as griefing, the goal would be discouraging players from doing it and if they're doing it then a report would be sufficient for a warn/ban. GMs can see what items you delete and loot in the logs, so if it's reported quickly they can easily track it and take actions.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of savage PF players in this forum to understand how infuriating it can be that someone griefs loot especially a weapon when you can roll 0 loot for entire weeks with no luck.

[Amarande]

The Western playerbase is pretty clearly hitting even more increasing skids. Whether this is a TOS violation or not - although honestly it should be - is rapidly becoming a secondary matter.

It's not a desynthable item, nor is it something that can be sold or given onward of itself. In other words, there isn't even the more multifaceted matter of whether "being a jerk to get ahead" is okay to consider here, because there simply wasn't even any "ahead" to get. The GNB acted flat out destructively, and I literally don't see what their defenders' rationale in rallying to them even is - especially during this tier where PF is already in a bad way due to the desperately tight DPS checks on P8S, and the alt job gearing situation is especially critical (many threads have already commented on this, but it comes down to that the community overall really needs as much gear to get out to as many people as possible and hoggish behavior like this needs to be swiftly condemned).

"Get a static" really isn't helping. What about people whose schedules make it problematic? It seems like some people are not only resigning themselves to the idea of "if you want to raid, get a static" but actively condoning the idea that part of the purpose of PF is to give malcontents a place to be jerks with little accountability. How does that benefit anyone?

Whatever happened to the olden MMO culture, where any sort of ninja looting behavior was condemned to the point that the guilty fellow was normally shunned from groups for all eternity? Do you want people like this in your parties?

(Hence why I say "the Western playerbase" because in JP, from what I understand of the JP DC, it would have certainly been this person's last PUG raid ...)