NIN at 90? Easy or hard?

[Aurora428]

Ninja has a lot of moving parts to keep track of, and they don't naturally flow into each other as there will be times you have to hold onto certain resources because a skill is nearing coming off cooldown or you set up other buffs, such as the suiton buff, for when you need to do a trick attack 20 seconds later.

Once you get the flow of it all, it can be a very fun job, but it does take a lot of practice to get to learn how to play.

Also don't listen to the comment above me. I explain it in another thread, but they are wrong about using raiton to disengage and maintain the GCD rolling. It's never done at no loss to total damage.

Quote from the Balance:

"As one of the most flexible melee in terms of disconnecting from the boss, Ninja has a wide array of options to pick from to keep their GCD rolling. Below is a simple priority list to follow to handle your disconnect:


1) If Trick is to be off cooldown in 20s, use Suiton to disengage.
2) If the disengage is within 45s after using Bunshin, save Phantom Kamaitachi to keep your GCD rolling.
3) Use Raiton, even if that means x1 Raiton less in Trick.
4) Throwing Dagger"

Option 1 is literally a 0 dps loss (save for the potential auto attack lost in any sort of disengage)

[Yeastyloins]

After playing SAM during 6.0 and 6.1 then swapping to NIN at the very start of this tier I can say that while NIN is very punishing when it comes to mistakes, those go away quickly as soon as you begin to get comfortable. The main thing about NIN is that your 2 min burst window requires alot of effort due to the high APM, the ease you can drift CDs or over cap on gauge, and how much stuff you need to fit within your Trick Attack windows. Conversely things are pretty low stakes in between burst windows. Even your 1 minute windows are by comparison more chill than your 2 min windows. You don't have much to heavily keep track of stuff outside of just using Suiton before over capping mudras which lines up well with Trick coming off CD or make sure you don't Bhava (Single Target Gauge Spender) when there's like 10 seconds left on Bunshin's CD. You also have some flexibility with your positionals and playing around with TN stacks.

[ZiraZ]

You know, with the amount of threads you make, you could have already leveled every job to 90 by now

[Nizzi]

You know, with the amount of threads you make, you could have already leveled every job to 90 by now

Is asking questions somehow a bad thing now?

[wereotter]

Quote from the Balance:

"As one of the most flexible melee in terms of disconnecting from the boss, Ninja has a wide array of options to pick from to keep their GCD rolling. Below is a simple priority list to follow to handle your disconnect:


1) If Trick is to be off cooldown in 20s, use Suiton to disengage.
2) If the disengage is within 45s after using Bunshin, save Phantom Kamaitachi to keep your GCD rolling.
3) Use Raiton, even if that means x1 Raiton less in Trick.
4) Throwing Dagger"

Option 1 is literally a 0 dps loss (save for the potential auto attack lost in any sort of disengage)

You led with option 3 as the correct answer to disengaging. Suiton I would agree with if it's at the correct time to set up the trick attack, but I wouldn't advise someone to start with a raiton. Also I'm not sure with their assessment, but feel free to enlighten me here if my math is wrong.

The potency gain from using Raiton and Raiju in a trick attack window is, at least, 121 potency, 65 potency gained from Raiton and 56 gained from Raijin (more if used in the 2-minute window with mug and other raid buffs) The potency of Throwing Dagger is 120. So the amount you lose from doing the raiton outside of the buff window is comparable or greater to throwing dagger, meaning you'd be better just keeping your GCD rolling with the dagger (or Suiton/Phantom Kamatachi if they're available) than losing that much in your burst. Which would say to me, you're better off still using the dagger over using Raiton when disengaging.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

Using throwing dagger completely removes a melee combo attack from your timeline, Raiton just swaps one in for the Raiton in Trick.

Your melee combo attacks average out to around 320 potency per hit (+ 5 additional Ninki from your finisher), so you're losing over 200 potency.

Also keep in mind that you can't fit a third Raiju into Trick during 120s bursts, so you're only gaining the 5% from Mug + any other 20s buffs.

[wereotter]

Using throwing dagger completely removes a melee combo attack from your timeline, Raiton just swaps one in for the Raiton in Trick.

Your melee combo attacks average out to around 320 potency per hit (+ 5 additional Ninki from your finisher), so you're losing over 200 potency.

Also keep in mind that you can't fit a third Raiju into Trick during 120s bursts, so you're only gaining the 5% from Mug + any other 20s buffs.

We're talking about when you're disengaged, though, where you can't use your melee moves. Obviously you shouldn't dagger toss if you're in range to use your regular combo. Additionally it's worth noting that dagger toss does give you the same ninki as you'd get from using your 1 and 2 combo moves in the melee without interrupting your ability to continue your melee combo once you're in range.

I'm looking at the potency lost due to not having the raiton in buff windows. Aeolian edge still has a lower potency than both raiton and raiju, so if you're swapping that in, you're still losing potency in the buff window over using a different ranged skill and holding your ninjutsu for the buff window. So I'm not seeing how your point makes things higher... Not saying you're wrong, just again, not seeing how this maths out.

[AlgernonBlackwood]

I'm saying that you need to look at the entire timeline of a fight. If you use a Raiton, you'll still be casting the same total number of melee combo weaponskills and Raitons over the course of the fight, but if you use dagger, you'll be casting one fewer melee combo weaponskill in exchange for one dagger throw.

320 potency (average potency of your melee combo weaponskills) + 35 potency (The 15 bonus ninki you get completing a melee combo, which works out to an extra 5 ninki, or 1/10 of a Bhavacakra per melee weaponskill) = 355 average potency per combo weaponskill vs. 120 potency on daggerthrow. I'm ignoring the 5 ninki you get from all weaponskills, since it's irrelevant.

The 121 potency gain during Trick that you mentioned doesn't make up for the 235 potency you lose by swapping when out a melee weaponskill for a dagger throw over the course of an entire fight. Even if you ignore the bonus ninki (since you'll likely end the fight with unused ninki and may be forced to overcap at some point, you can't reliably translate such small amounts into potency), it's still a loss.

If you knew for certain that this would only cost you a Spinning Edge, I think it would be worth it, but at that level of optimization you probably have better ways to deal with downtime.

[ZiraZ]

Is asking questions somehow a bad thing now?

It may or it may not be, I don't care, I just find it amusing to look at the post history, I've never seen someone so undecided

[Ralphe2449]

It may or it may not be, I don't care, I just find it amusing to look at the post history, I've never seen someone so undecided

Probably can beat that, in every single mmo I have played, I have never managed to stick to one dps class for more than 1.5 months, it truly is suffering