YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Deveryn]

If melee jobs can survive an Onslaught of three to four mobs that he pulls to the tank then the tank is not exactly in a position to scream "this is too much for me!". At that point I'd ask him to turn off tank stance every second pull and focus on damage.

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

[LittleImp]

Don't try to call me on strawman then pull the same shit. I never said anything about it being too much. Few people do in this YPYT argument. It's about making more work for the healer and tank. This is about non-tanks sprinting out of the gate to pick things up, when the best approach for the tank is to actually pop sprint just ahead of the mobs to gather everything and space out the damage and get everything situated for the DPS.

DPS should worry less about pulling mobs / rushing the party along and think more about actually getting a decent burst off on ALL the mobs when the tank has them all together.

"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing.

As per my other post, what if the context is an instanced dungeon like Eureka or Bozja. And your DPS or healer trains over multiple Tier V or whatever enemies that will wipe your party. Do you still grab them? Or is it griefing?

I mean, in Bozja it's really common for non-tanks to run around and aggro a bunch of stuff and then pull it into a CE with the expectation that a tank will pick it up and everyone will get some clusters out of it. Tier V mobs usually only get aggroed by accident, and usually just rapidly kill the person who aggroed them anyway.

If the healer wasn't prepared for 20 adds and they are pulled anyway - is the healer griefing if they don't keep the party alive?

The healer is griefing if they intentionally opt not to even try. If they give it their genuine best shot, no one is going to call them a griefer.

[Deveryn]

"The best approach";

Based on what? Your personal feelings about the matter? There are plenty of optimized settings in which DPS pulling for the tank is pretty common. It happens all the time in dungeon speeds, even in parties where they decline entirely to bring a healer. It's usually a net-neutral, and at best it can be an efficiency gain.

YPYT is just an ego thing..

Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

[ForteNightshade]

Do whatever you like in PF. I'm talking about roulettes. Standard practice is the tank handles mobs and adjusts the pace if need be, as you don't always get people in the best gear. That's what I've seen in my thousands of runs.

There's no ego involved in this, other than the person charging ahead, acting like they're doing anyone a favor. That's the epitome of ego: "I did this and you must be accepting and thankful"

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

[LittleImp]

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

All he does is make broad, empty statements like "There is no ego involved" or "This is the best approach".

Most of his views seem to just revolve around his own personal feelings, which frankly isn't surprising at all in a thread with people unironically defending YPYT.

[Deveryn]

Isn't the whole argument for Roulette "anything goes. So deal with it"? You do realize that applies to both sides, yes? Therefore, if you're a tank who only likes small pulls, you can also go to PF and setup a premade. When it takes over an hour to fill maybe you'll start to realize people don't actually like small pulls.

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

I've never heard of such an argument, but I would say people should be prepared for suboptimal pulls as not everyone keeps their gear up to date. Other than that, to quote the great one, know your role and shut your mouth.

I've done none of these things. I've seen almost none of this. Some people in lower levels pull small because they're learning. I'm always getting everything. Go bother someone that actually causes whatever problems supposedly exist.

[Jojoya]

It is entirely an ego thing. You can be annoyed by someone but still do your job. Turning off your stance and outright refusing to tank because the Dragoon aggro'd first is nothing but ego. Especially when the YPYT types will almost always type in chat about "teaching you a lesson."

You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.

[Chiharu_Sakurai]

You're right. It's entirely an ego thing.

The DPS ego that thinks they get the right to dictate how things will be done to the rest of the party and that it's up to the tank to meet their standards instead of the entire party talking things over.

Most players going into a dungeon with randoms are fine with the tank pulling at a pace the tank is comfortable with. It's only the egotistical DPS who feel otherwise.

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried. Tank has one thing to worry about, grabbing all the mobs while pressing their two button AoE combo and popping a CD every 10-15s. Healers need juggle their resources (MP, Lillies, aetherflow, cards and whatever sage has) along with CDs, and watching the tanks health all while popping their AoE damage button.

If the DPS is getting annoyed at a single pull tank, its because they could be wiping out 2-3 packs of trash in the same amount of time as the ONE trash, while the healer (SCH/SGE mostly) is sitting there on most of their CDs because nothing is even coming close to hurting the tank.

Tell me, If I run Tam-tara as a SCH and the tank wall to walls that, and we complete it in 9m all the while pumping out damage, why should we stand for a tank pulling one or two enemies at time and it takes 20m to clear. At that point we dont even need a tank. Heck, I queued into Castrum, WAR of all things tried that single pull stunt, got mad at me going ahead of him, left. Me (SAM), a SGE and I think a SMN finished the dungeon without a tank, as I wound up tanking 2/3rds of that dungeon and only died once when I screwed up a boss mech.

You want to single pull please queue up for duty support.

The only time its acceptable to single pull is in criterion dungeons and if your tank and healer dont have the gear, though at that point you're probably better off just taking the L and dipping out.

[UkcsAlias]

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried

Then the healer should pull. The healer is responsible for keeping the tank alive, and the tank is responsible for taking the aggro, if the tank at least does that, then the healer can still do its task.

Tanks might not be comfortable at first, but this can at least show him he can, do that a few times, and the tank might realize it better.

But its best noticed when the entire team is just running past the tank and waiting for him to follow. As at that point its not just the DPS alone, its the team. TPYT as a team is completely fine, as that is teamwork!

Still, it might be that i think that way because as tank i generaly try to w2w in most duties, however, in some dungeons im still going to be more careful (especialy when new to it). But even here, i will take at least 2 mobs. There is no reason to take 1, unless you are in satasha.

[Jojoya]

So its perfectly fine to keep the entire party there for an extra 10-20m because the tank "doesnt feel comfortable" when it should be the healer who should be worried.

It's not gong to take that much longer unless the DPS sucks, and if the DPS sucks then the tank shouldn't be chain-pulling in the first place because that's going to stress both them and the healer. LeonKyeh can write out all the defensives available but that 10% reduction from Reprisal isn't going to help a lot when the tank is still taking a beating from a dozen mobs because bad DPS hasn't thinned out the pack yet.

Naturally, the DPS is going to suck if all one of the DPS is doing is running back and forth to pulling mobs instead of letting the tank pull to get aggro properly so the mobs are grouped together for AoEing effectively. Imagine how much quicker engaged mobs would died if you had stayed to AoE them instead of wasting 10-15 seconds running around looking for more.

Server ticks are an awkward things, especially for those with higher ping. Let me pull as tank and I can tell if my AoE has hit all the targets properly. It doesn't always happen. There are times when one gets missed even though from my perspective it was the one closest to me. Thank you, bad server communication.

If you pull as DPS and they're following you in a string past me as you run behind, my AoE isn't going to hit them all. If you're left with something beating on you because you ran past me and they didn't get caught in my AoE, that's your problem. You can be smart and run it back to me so I can pick it up with my AoE, or you can take the beating. Me trying to run around after you to get the strays only makes things that much harder for the rest of the party. None of us can AoE effectively if the mobs are getting moved around and scattered to save your sorry butt and the healer may even feel obligated to stop their own DPS to heal you. There goes DPS even lower.