YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Ransu]

This is just a FYI, but tanking does not mean you are the only one allowed to pull mobs in a dungeon.

Yes it does. Tanks job is to control the threat of all the mobs. Its not the healers job, its not the dps job and if you wanna pull, have fun dealing with that mob.

You sound like one of those players that runs ahead and pulls cuz the tank isn't going fast enough for you. To be blunt, players like you are the problem, not tanks that abide by the rule of YPYT.

This is also reinforced in the novice network's training simulations. The dps jobs pull mobs for the tank in those training sims.

WTF are you talking about? Nothing about the tutorials even remotely suggest that. This isn't 2001 with exp farming parties where a ranged pulls mobs back to a groups camp. Welcome to 2022 and modern MMO's. Its the tanks job to pull and to control the flow of a dungeon.

YPYT mindset is just an ego problem. It's 100% a problem of tanks feeling offended that someone else thinks they're taking too much time to pull.

If a tanks not comfortable with bigger pulls then they are not comfortable. If you don't like their pace then leave and take the leaver penalty, otherwise suck it up its not that big of a deal if your dungeon run adds an extra 5 minutes because you don't have the patience to deal with someone who may be new to tanking.

[Rolanberries]

If a tanks not comfortable with bigger pulls then they are not comfortable. If you don't like their pace then leave and take the leaver penalty, otherwise suck it up its not that big of a deal if your dungeon run adds an extra 5 minutes because you don't have the patience to deal with someone who may be new to tanking.

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing (main point of the OP), unlike refusing to grab the aggro from dps or healer. Besides, there's plenty of tools for tanks and healers to use to handle big pulls with ease. Tanks who prefer small pulls for whatever reason have options such as trust, or letting their party know from the start since it's usually the norm to do wall to wall pulls. It's simply just a you problem at that point if you're refusing to cooperate with your team and use extra cooldowns if one of your party members happen to pull.

[Zolvolt]

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing (main point of the OP), unlike refusing to grab the aggro from dps or healer. Besides, there's plenty of tools for tanks and healers to use to handle big pulls with ease. Tanks who prefer small pulls for whatever reason have options such as trust, or letting their party know from the start since it's usually the norm to do wall to wall pulls. It's simply just a you problem at that point if you're refusing to cooperate with your team and use extra cooldowns if one of your party members happen to pull.

This is exactly my point yes. Communicating with a party that you struggle with big pulls or are a new player is not what we're talking about. We're talking about all the experienced tank players (any tank who is level 90 and not a sprout/returning player) in the game that grief the party when they are not the one who touched the mob first.

[Ransu]

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing

It kinda is though.

[Shurrikhan]

[Pulling as a dps or healer] kinda is [griefing] though.

It's only griefing if it's creating an unfavorable equilibrium of stress to pursuit of the party's interest. Most want to complete their daily in a reasonable time. Most do not want to be stressed in doing so. Being a team player is essentially acting the best you can towards both priorities.

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.


Consider: What's the stressor there? Not a content mechanic, but a social factor -- and from a single person, opposite a majority.

And if the tank refuses to take threat on those pulls, it's no longer incidental; it's intentional. How would that possibly not be griefing/trolling/gameplay sabotage? It is actively and disproportionately negatively affecting one's party, to a lower average quality for everyone, in a way that relies upon breaking from a much more fundamental responsibility (not just pulling and pace-setting, but actually tanking).

YPYT is purposely ignoring one's actual responsibilities (not just their typical perks/prerogatives) with the express purpose of harming other players in order to enforce a minority preference over that majority. That is, definitively, entitled griefing.

[Bad_Luck]

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.

And if 3/4s of the party is pissed at the one DPS who decided to pull and cause a wipe, they can easily and very quickly be replaced. I don't know why you people always assume it's always the tank here putting on airs of being a team dictator. If the DPS pulls without consulting the party, clearly they're thinking they run the whole team on their own. If they cause a wipe they clearly didn't have healer or tank support. So you can get mad at the tank if you want, but I find it's usually the DPS who can't hold their water (or aggro).

[Regentwill]

It's only griefing if it's creating an unfavorable equilibrium of stress to pursuit of the party's interest. Most want to complete their daily in a reasonable time. Most do not want to be stressed in doing so. Being a team player is essentially acting the best you can towards both priorities.

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.


Consider: What's the stressor there? Not a content mechanic, but a social factor -- and from a single person, opposite a majority.

And if the tank refuses to take threat on those pulls, it's no longer incidental; it's intentional. How would that possibly not be griefing/trolling/gameplay sabotage? It is actively and disproportionately negatively affecting one's party, to a lower average quality for everyone, in a way that relies upon breaking from a much more fundamental responsibility (not just pulling and pace-setting, but actually tanking).

YPYT is purposely ignoring one's actual responsibilities (not just their typical perks/prerogatives) with the express purpose of harming other players in order to enforce a minority preference over that majority. That is, definitively, entitled griefing.

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

[Canadane]

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

[Regentwill]

almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

I can admit that no I did not play Final Fantasy XI but see above quote. I said Almost, as there is nothing that is completely absolute. Those old games were more of how that was handled. Ranged DPS go out, pull the mob to the waiting group, group DPS's mobs down. I am aware of that, I did not play XI but I did play Everquest and I think the pulling system was similar. But pretty much from the introduction of instanced dungeons it has not been that way.

EDIT: Actually taking that into consideration, I can see why a lot of FFXI players who moved to FF14 (which makes sense) would not be aware that a lot of other games people play use a different pulling system. Kind of eye opening there.

[dspguy]

Never played XI eh?

As far as DPS pulling in FFXI, that was a very different game than FFXIV. There was an actual death penalty (/gasp!) and if you wanted to keep the exp coming through exp chains, you had to send out the DPS (or the BRD, which was not a DPS in that game) to pull while the group finished off the last 20% or so of the mob's HP.

Death in FFXIV is a joke. If the tank fails to use mitigation or the healer messes up, you lose...what? A minute or two of time running back and pulling again. You lose no experience, no gil, and very little time. But, when everyone is accustomed to 12-18 minute dungeons, those 2 minutes seem like forever. In FFXI, if your party wiped, you didn't just lose 10 minutes rezzing and waiting for weakness to wear off, you probably lost 30 minutes of experience for that death.

in FFXI, it was in your best interest, truly, to prevent deaths. And you'd have those rare occasions when the puller would eat a death to not train the group with 3-4 mobs. You could raise up just the puller, toss a stoneskin on them and they could continue to pull while weak.

YPYT is a silly conversation to have. In all content outside of Bozja, adding more enemies to a pull is rarely a problem. The tank is AOEing anyway and will pull hate with one attack once the mobs are in the group. Killing 5 enemies takes as much time as 10 or 15, as long as the group can take them down fast enough while the tank and healer manage HP. But, it doesn't mean you can force a tank into pulling more than they are comfortable with. That's duty finder for you.