Interesting Detail About Grani

[MediocreIndigo]

Emet-Selch wanted WoL to win and restore the night, which is why Endwalker paired him with Grani to reinforce that idea.

He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

[kaynide]

It could be that Grani is in fact Emet’s mount/familiar and we are given it because Shadowbringers is essentially “his” expansion. Or it could be that they just decided since it was in “his” expansion, why not use it in Endwalker. Chicken or the Egg kinda.

In addition, the WoL don’t necessarily have Grani in canon, and any lore regarding Grani in our mount description needed more than “thx for buying the collectors edition!”

[Cleretic]

He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

It doesn't, because he didn't.

It wasn't that Emet wanted us to succeed so much as he was curious to see if we could. According to a Yoshi-P interview that was referenced here recently (I forget which thread specifically) it was at least in part to see if we were really who he thought we were--and that he didn't really have a plan if we were--but that can't have been true the whole time, and his talk with the Exarch in the Crystal Tower confirms that he was motivated at least as much by curiosity of just how all of this was possible.

After all, if you found out a group's taking a shot at something you thought was completely impossible, even if you don't actually want them to do the thing, you're gonna watch them try, right?

[Veloran]

He did? Where does it say that he wanted that?

https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1srq41a

Since the WoL is indeed a fragmented body of souls, if the event where they can control all the Light they've absorbed, then there will be a need to reevaluate the current mankind.... And that's his way of thinking. He also had seen the process of their journey in person. To join hands with others, to go on and resolve problems, amongst this he thought that maybe the solution to everything might be in there. And especially, the very fact that the WoL's soul resembled someone he knew all too well, and in a way, loved, even.... And yet! And so, that is how he became disappointed from the very bottom of his heart. These are Emet-Selch's true feelings.

But, I would like to bring your attention to Y'shtola's lines after clearing the Hades trial. She mentioned how tattered the WoL's aether was from the rampaging Light that it was as though, the Darkness had completely eliminated it all.

As a result, perhaps the Light and Dark residing inside of WoL had reached an equilibrium? Meaning Emet-Selch had reached a certain conclusion..... So, I'd like you to take another look at those scenes, and perhaps you may reach a different interpretation.

Then you have Elpis, where Emet-Selch simply can't understand why he would bring WoL down into a recreated Amaurot and essentially invite his own demise and the ruination of his millennia-long plans. Lampshading this hints at the fact that this exact outcome was what he was trying to push WoL towards all along, as suggested when he first lays eyes on WoL in Lakeland and recognizes their soul.

It doesn't, because he didn't.

I'm pretty sure I've posted this and explained it multiple times, so you should remember what I'm referencing.

[Cleretic]

Found it: I was actually remembering a more accurate and complete translation of the same interview Veloran was pointing to. I mostly have Veloran blacklisted, so I knew it couldn't have been from him; who'd have guessed, I actually got it from the actual thread about exactly that moment. It's rather a lot less certain than Veloran's putting forward; the fact Yoshi-P doesn't ever say that Emet actually wanted us to succeed, but does say he was disappointed when we didn't, suggests to me that it wasn't a disappointment rooted in investment in success, but more disappointment rooted in curiosity.

I'd compare it to watching someone get close to a world record, or some other sporting feat; I'm not disappointed because I actually had investment in the result or would've changed my mind if I saw it, I'm more just disappointed because I thought I might see something I didn't think was possible. That also goes along with the fact he doesn't have any ideas for what to do after a theoretical success (which is a part Veloran's quote didn't bring in): I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm watching something happen and actually hoping for an unlikely success, I ussually have a few follow-up steps thought up.


I'd also point out a crucial piece of evidence here: he shot G'raha right as he was about to genuinely succeed through a direction Emet didn't consider at all before then. That kinda shows that he wasn't actually watching for 'success by cleansing the First', or else he would've just let G'raha do it. He was watching to see if we could contain the light, and whether or not the First would be solved by this is entirely ancillary.

[Veloran]

Found it: I was actually remembering a more accurate and complete translation

Funny that you'd call it "more accurate" when the very thread you linked alongside it has people pointing out how parts of it are actually less accurate, e.g translating "true human" as "Unsundered" even though these aren't really equivalent ideas. Being more grammatically correct in English doesn't equal being more accurate to what's being said in Japanese.

suggests to me that it wasn't a disappointment rooted in investment in success, but more disappointment rooted in curiosity.

It was a disappointment rooted in hope. You can see this referenced in Through His Eyes.

Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless.

This ties back to his dialog at the Crown of the Immaculate.

I placed my faith in you. Let myself believe that you could contain the Light.

In both cases he was holding on to hope, in Shadowbringers that being WoL living up to Azem and doing something that he thinks Azem, no matter how sundered they were, should have easily been able to do.

he felt it should be easy to contain the light emitted by the Lightwardens regardless of how fragmented the soul is.
By the end, Emet-Selch thought, “You are not Azem, nor someone similar to Azem… in the end, you were nothing but a failure”.

This all leads back to how he wanted WoL to live up to the Ancient's, and Azem's, legacy.

Remember, the Scions never bring this up, it's Emet-Selch who does. For him this is what containing the Light or saving the First is about. This is why he sabotages G'raha's solution, because allowing someone else to bear the burden in order to save their own life is something that Azem rejected to such a degree that they left the Convocation over just that issue. If WoL had just accepted this and lived off the back of G'raha's sacrifice, they wouldn't be Azem.

Then we get to Amaurot. His actions there, and afterwards, really can't be squared with the idea that he was setting up WoL to fail - Just the opposite really, he was setting up WoL to succeed. First he invites WoL to the Tempest, when simply not telling them where he was going would have ensured his victory. This is directly pointed out by Emet in Elips as being a move that can't really be understood at all from the position of thinking that he wanted to win. He then recreates phantom Amaurot, essentially for the purposes of showing it to WoL and explaining their history. The "unnecessary flourishes" he references in his talk with the Scions is almost certainly the existence of the shade of Hythlodaeus and the plan to deliver WoL the Azem crystal after his own death, an outcome that he's hoping for but doesn't think has a chance of actually happening. Of course, he then stays in Amaurot and meets WoL in battle, despite having no real reason to do so other than offering the chance for WoL to defeat him. He even mends WoL's soul by balancing their aether with darkness during the battle, and then still doesn't flee even after freeing himself from the auracite, things he again has no reason to do if he isn't hoping for WoL's victory. And after being defeated he stays dead, despite having the ability to return from the aetherial sea, even going so far as to help WoL defeat Elidibus, because he now believes WoL lives up to Azem.

And all of this is preceded by his scene in Lakeland, where he says, alone and to himself:

Then again... with a soul such as that... Mayhap there is another way. One which does not require bloodshed.

As far as I can tell, the only opposition argument to all of this is that it's just meaningless. Emet-Selch was simply an irrational actor and all of these actions that don't make sense or contradict his obvious goals are just nonsense or elements to move the plot along. When another version of himself can't rationalize his own actions it's simply there to point out that he was crazy. When he's paired up with Grani, it's just ShB fanservice. When he creates Hythlodaeus to give WoL the Azem crystal, it was just a mistake. When he says all these things about letting himself believe in WoL he was only talking about believing he'd be able to hold the Light long enough to blow up with it or betray everything Azem ever believed in order to join the Ascians. And frankly I just don't buy those arguments.

[Lyth]

The Ascians invested a lot in order to try to rejoin the First. As Mitron explains, when the Ascians brought about the Flood of Darkness on the Thirteenth, the First was the world most affected by the shift, bringing it precariously close to the brink of a Light-aspected rejoining. Given that the Flood of Darkness preceded all of the rejoinings that we've had to date, you could say that it's the one world that they tried to rejoin for the longest - and failed at it. Given that Emet literally discards Mitron after he gets transformed to Eden just to keep his plan on track, you can imagine how very little investment he actually has in a rejoined Azem somehow proving humanity's worth to him. And even after he witnesses us passing his test in front of his own eyes, he still continues on the same course. It's not like he congratulates us on not transforming and offers us to join his side.

You can claim that on some level he wanted someone to finally put a stop to him and for his endless battles to end, but he's no less of a monster for the atrocities that he wrought.