Abyssos is fun for tanks because Warriors can't cheese it

[AttilaHetzel]

1. This is strictly about endgame.
2. This is not a rant about bleed on tank busters
3. This is not about the fights as a whole, but the off tank role on it.

On my time playing FFXIV endgame (Savages and Ultimates) I have come to really hate the Warrior job, and I know people will hate on me because they love the class, many times you'll hear that it is the best tank in the game, or the so famous "Warrior is F' good" but I really disagree with this, this job is in almost every static, in almost every party finder, almost every composition out there has a Warrior on it, and the main reason is because of how easy it is to play and how frequent it can cheese fights. I could go hours upon this idea, but to give one of many examples, last tier's 4th fight against Hesperos is a prime example, a fight in which Warrior could simply invul 4 of the 5 tank busters on the fight, having only to swap on phase 1, making the off tank be the so called "Blue DPS"

Here's where I really love Abyssos, despite how we can all feel that only 2 fights this tier are fun, one thing I can say about all of them is that the off tank got to be involved on the tank role! that's right, WE GOT TO PLAY THE GAME! and this is by the design of how the tank busters work, no tank can invul it and keep on tanking, a swap is a must on almost every fight, the one exception being 7 where both tanks are always on top of enmity, but what this means is Warriors can't cheese it, and therefore the off tank is not just a blue DPS, is an actual tank on the fight.

The sad part about all this, is that either SE would have to make this a design choice going forward of making tank busters a must swap thing (which I know is not unique to Abyssos mind you) or somehow nerf Warrior's sustain, which I don't see happening anytime soon, it is just so sad that one tank gets to have most of the fun all the time, and that tank happens to be the most boring and easy to play, where Paladins and Gunbreakers are heavily punished upon messing their rotations, Warriors are near impossible to mess up, and even if you do, it really doesn't matter, you can recover almost instantly or with near inconsequential repercussions, even Dark Knights despite how similar they play to warrior (outside their bursts) get more punishment when messing up.
I personally feel that this one job in the game needs a nerf on sustain, maybe then they would finally boost its damage, because if they did with how it is right now, it would be broken on the eyes of everyone, and not just some as it is now.

I'd like to know if someone disagrees with it, because it has become an unspoken rule all over the game, if there's a warrior, they are the main tank, and that has become a thing just because of its design (this of course doesn't mean the other tanks can't main tank, they totally can, I have done it and so many others, but it's always a better choice to leave a warrior do it because of their kit).

[AttilaHetzel]

What I mean by having fun is that, at least for me, most of the fun of playing a tank is that on top of your DPS rotation, you have to make a mitigation rotation (this will change depending on the fight) and there's a really nice feeling upon going to a fight wiping to it and then learning where all fits and execute it to reach a clear, mapping all these things on your head, and being consistent with them to sustain yourself and make the healers not have to worry a lot about you, to be able to sustain your damage on top of it, to have good communication with your co-tank and plan on it, it is just a lot of fun, but when a fight like P4S happens (and there's a lot of fights like this one in the game) where I go through both phases or the whole fight with only my DPS rotation, I have to ask myself... why am I playing tank? I could play DPS and it'll be the same (with the extra things that make playing DPS fun of course)

This tier it didn't matter if a Warrior showed up, it was still fun.

[fulminating]

Instead you get a dark knight to solo all the condensed aeroes. Amazing.

The issue is not warrior’s sustain, but the lack of variety, poorly chosen tb timings (just have three in a 230s period) and especially the lack of auto attacks. Last tier ultima unreal required more from any tank than the savage fights, no one can live through 5 stacks, short telegraph tankbusters and constant autos made it far more engaging. Even with the ubiquitous tank lb. I don’t think anyone would accuse arr of having superior fight design, but there are elements that have been lost over the years which would be interesting to see resurface.

[Oizen]

Instead you get a dark knight to solo all the condensed aeroes. Amazing.

The issue is not warrior’s sustain, but the lack of variety, poorly chosen tb timings (just have three in a 230s period) and especially the lack of auto attacks. Last tier ultima unreal required more from any tank than the savage fights, no one can live through 5 stacks, short telegraph tankbusters and constant autos made it far more engaging. Even with the ubiquitous tank lb. I don’t think anyone would accuse arr of having superior fight design, but there are elements that have been lost over the years which would be interesting to see resurface.

Well I mean that fight you mention, WAR was far better off than DRK at surviving in that fight. DRK crumbles under constant damage and thrives under singular big hits, while WAR can just sorta coast through most things with its insane self heals, I would actually swap to WAR for that unreal in particular because of it, only content thats ever made me want to do that.

But this tier seems to be a direct response to Asphodelos being homogenized to such an insane degree by MT War strategies having Holmgang thrown out 3 times per fight. Personally I would have just increased the cooldown on Holmgang but I don't think SE is quite ready to admit that Invuls and their functions need to be readdressed across the board.

[Hierro]

These kinds of posts just showcase just how powerful WAR truly is. No one cares about it's DPS being on the lower end because the disparity is ultimately inconsequential, it's still the life of the party and as ubiquitous as ever before.

Perhaps abyssos was designed so that no one tank can use their invuln like WAR has been able to in tiers past. Yet, OP fails to mention the other big theme of this tier-- Most tank busters are accompanied by a DoT bleed effect. DRK in particular seems to struggle with this theme, and I can understand why given their kit lacks the tools necessary to deal with it. By contrast, WAR just pops equilibrium and it's okay. Pair it with ToB, and the issue is almost non-existent. Not only does WAR mitigate these tank busters on a level that's on par with the other tanks, but it easily outshines the rest as it's able to heal the damage off, thereby easing healer burden. Easing healer burden is a significant point given that this tier has really amped up the healing required on certain parts, so this is a significant factor and a reason why WAR remains a prevalent force.

So, congrats you're happy this tier?

[CKNovel]

Not so sure about that.
It wasn't Holmgang cheese that made the game "unfun".
It's just that at some point it became stale, Holmgang just allowed more invuln cheese.

It's not very fun to kitchen sink your CDs on tank busters.
P8S is mostly about that, every tank buster must be kitchen sink except the last one.

WAR still remains strong defensively and PLD remains the tank with the worst defensives.

[dspguy]

Make invulns have a recast longer than the instance. And make them not reset upon death. Therefore, no one should rely on them for anything in content like that. Make it something infrequently used for mechanics.

[CKNovel]

Make invulns have a recast longer than the instance. And make them not reset upon death. Therefore, no one should rely on them for anything in content like that. Make it something infrequently used for mechanics.

Terrible idea.

You'd just kill one mitigation on each tanks.
If you actually mean Invuln having 120 mins and not resetting upon wipe, your idea would most likely end up in groups exiting and requeueing in the instance after each wipes.
Groups formed through duty finder wouldn't be able to use these strats and would simply be punished because of game mechanics.

And if you don't reset invuln after an instance end, imagine you had to pop it one hour ago and it's time to raid.
"Johnny, can you invuln?"
"Huh... No, I used it in a dungeon an hour ago, I still have 40 mins CD"

On top of that you would make invuln an unreliable tool to use. Might as well remove them if we would go with your idea.

[AttilaHetzel]

These kinds of posts just showcase just how powerful WAR truly is. No one cares about it's DPS being on the lower end because the disparity is ultimately inconsequential, it's still the life of the party and as ubiquitous as ever before.

Perhaps abyssos was designed so that no one tank can use their invuln like WAR has been able to in tiers past. Yet, OP fails to mention the other big theme of this tier-- Most tank busters are accompanied by a DoT bleed effect. DRK in particular seems to struggle with this theme, and I can understand why given their kit lacks the tools necessary to deal with it. By contrast, WAR just pops equilibrium and it's okay. Pair it with ToB, and the issue is almost non-existent. Not only does WAR mitigate these tank busters on a level that's on par with the other tanks, but it easily outshines the rest as it's able to heal the damage off, thereby easing healer burden. Easing healer burden is a significant point given that this tier has really amped up the healing required on certain parts, so this is a significant factor and a reason why WAR remains a prevalent force.

So, congrats you're happy this tier?

It's not that WAR is powerful, is outright broken, is way too easy to play, you can't mess up, and you can't die, this is both in PVE and PVP... idk why people even cheat on this game when this job exists tbh.

[AttilaHetzel]

Instead you get a dark knight to solo all the condensed aeroes. Amazing.

The issue is not warrior’s sustain, but the lack of variety, poorly chosen tb timings (just have three in a 230s period) and especially the lack of auto attacks. Last tier ultima unreal required more from any tank than the savage fights, no one can live through 5 stacks, short telegraph tankbusters and constant autos made it far more engaging. Even with the ubiquitous tank lb. I don’t think anyone would accuse arr of having superior fight design, but there are elements that have been lost over the years which would be interesting to see resurface.

I don't think that's a good example, or any would be, because warrior will always be the "best" for each of those scenarios