Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Saraide]

Toxic casuals are raising really good points about how to misuse parsers but not by showing us how raiders are so toxic with parsers but by themselves being unable to read logs in an adequate way.

I'm not missing anything lol. Anyone can see all of your savage parses for P5-P8 because you left your logs public(unless you want me to also list last tier which is actually worse). I don't know why you're trying to deflect so hard here and its ok to admit you were wrong. You were the one pointing out that parsing should be used to judge players and who can be allowed into groups. I called you out on it by using your own logs to prove a point that doing stuff like that is wrong and now you're doing everything you can to deflect it. You lost this fight.

The only point you have proven is that you should not be left to decide who is in a group or not because you will use parsers in the exact same way you project on raiders.

[Absimiliard]

The only point you have proven is that you should not be left to decide who is in a group or not because you will use parsers in the exact same way you project on raiders.

You should read back a bit. In all candor, the poster they're speaking of was the one that brought this on. The individual in question tried to silence someone else based on their parses, which in turn lead to them getting called out on their own performance. Casting stones from a glass house and all that.

[Atelier-Bagur]

You're missing a lot of what is on the website though. It really is the toxic casuals we need to look out for, and you continue to showcase this

I think it's pathetic how desperate you are to defending your own terrible performance when somebody actually checks your logs.

Its almost as if when somebody is being elitist about your parsing suddenly it's not so fun for you anymore is it?

What a joke

[Ransu]

Toxic casuals are raising really good points about how to misuse parsers but not by showing us how raiders are so toxic with parsers but by themselves being unable to read logs in an adequate way.



The only point you have proven is that you should not be left to decide who is in a group or not because you will use parsers in the exact same way you project on raiders.

You clearly missed what I was pointing out...I don't really care about other peoples parses. I have fun with it with my static, but outside of that I care nothing at all about parsing because I'm clearing content which is all that matters to me. My entire point of pulling FireMages logs was to point out why using parses to judge people is wrong. He's clearly clearing content thus it doesn't matter if he's a 99% or a 9%. He is the one advocating for open parsing and dictating who can and cannot be in a group based on dps numbers. I was calling him out on it. He's pretending to be hardcore, yet the actual hardcore groups would never allow him to run with them based on his current logs. The current system of basically keep it to yourself is a good thing and protects players like FireMage who don't even realize they would be the ones being judged poorly if we had open parsing.

[SannaR]

What kind of moron parses in 24 mans in the first place? That's like cutting off your own leg and attempting to run a race with 23 other people who plucked out their eyes instead. It's a useless endeavor outside of a structured environment, as any number of things can bone you out of your DPS without you having any control over it. Mostly other players.

I actually had a few hilarious times in 24mans where people "complained" or at least I'd like to think they were joking about complaining about their dps in LotA and Sycrus of all places. Heck had one person cry muh dps when I rescued them over to the closet purple orb deposit area. They were on Sch n I'm all you can cast Ruin II on the fly and omg no one cares about your dps here. Like holy heck.

And even if people don't do high end crap they can still end up on FFLogs due to someone parsing and loading it up to the site. It's how I know I have information there. Not that I care as I haven't willingly touched high end stuff with a 10ft pole in years. Course last I saw what little information I did have I was hitting average and slightly above while not trying, no BiS or melded stuff.

[ForteNightshade]

P5S is the only one you have good runs on, which is also the easiest of all the fights.

P5S - 1 orange, 3 purple and 2 grey. Median of 80. Your only good set of runs.
P6S - 2 greens, 3 greys and 1 blue. Median of 23.8
P7S - 5 greys, 1 blue. Median of 19.5
P8S Door - 3 blue, 3 green 3 grey. Median of 34.1
P8S Part 2 you have one clear which is a grey. Median of 9.1

You have a death in nearly every clear, some of them several times. Whether they were your fault or not doesn't matter. By your own standards PF leaders would kick you out of the group. Your logs also shows that parsing honestly doesn't matter and people can be carried. So ya, the current system we have where parse if you want to, but keep it to yourself is perfectly fine. I hate using logs like this. I think its a terrible thing to do, but pointing out the level of toxicity you're asking for and why what you want is bad is the only thing that can be done here.

I disagree on the last part. Nothing you've said is toxic nor would I consider it toxic if brought up in a PF after a few pulls when someone is clearly struggling with their DPS. It's all about how someone says it.

"Hey dude, we're gonna have to rep you. Your damage is really low."
"What's going on DRK? Why is your damage so low?"

Neither statement is toxic. You could argue they're mildly blunt but this is high end content. I don't feel we should have to sugarcoat poor performance at the Savage level. On the other hand,

"WTF dude? Your damage sucks."
"LOL RDM wants a carry"
"kick this <insert expletive> They suck"

Would be toxic. It'd also lead to potential bans just on the tone alone without any mention of parsing. In fact, two of those statements could have nothing to do with parsing yet still warrant a report for flaming. In my opinion, an open parse policy would inevitably lead to all the loudmouths getting themselves banned just because they can't help themselves. Which, honestly, is good for all of us.

Just for clarity sake, this has nothing to do with FireMage's comments directly. I'm with you on that even as someone who enjoys logging.

[Ivtrix]

I'm just imagining a bunch of adults sitting around bickering about how much dps they do on a video game and it's kind of funny.

its no different than sports

people are competitive, and as stupid as they sound sometimes different things make different people happy

[caffe_macchiato]

Oh can it with the sob story about the game and parsing, will you? Nobody will play the violin for this, you can curb the drama. The community's always been passive-aggressive

Times like these need a firm hand. If the playerbase is unwilling to change—and why should it when it’s not a single person?—then we must have safeguards. We cannot trust all players to act in good faith, and rules are necessary to keep them in check.

The simplest choice that SE could make is to disable logging to a readable file. Either encrypt the log file or disable the battle log entirely. It’s a relic from FFXI and 1.0. With that removed, ACT and FFLogs immediately stops working. It’s a very simple change to implement. It could be as simple as devs remapping the default log directory to a non-existent directory thus disabling the file from being generated.

Sure, toxic behavior could continue afterwards, but on a much smaller scale. FFXIV is not some stone monument that can never be changed. It is a video game with updates. We don’t have to be like this.

[Saraide]

snip

The current system doesnt protect him because his parses are out in the open for everyone to check. Which we all did. And he gets to clear things anyway because most reasonable people do not care that much about logs as long as you arent actively griefing the group. Enough people would rather work with a mediocre group and go right now instead of waiting for the mythical god gamer group.
There are groups which will require a much higher level of play than people like firemage or me can provide. And that's fine. What wouldnt be fine is if we were to try to force our way into those groups. This is at the heart of what people like firemage and azuri are advocating for: group up with people at your skill level. Logs can provide useful information towards that. Now the actual problem systemizing this has which I so far havent seen brought up much is that people are not good at judging their own skill level. A self selection into either hardcore or casual raiders does not work smoothly, measuring skill with automated systems is janky at best as it is a team game and having an measuring committee made up of actual people is just not doable. A strictly binary division between hardcore and casual raiders would not make sense anyway because skill is not strictly binary.

Using logs to curate your groups is 100% valid. There are enough groups that dont care, you can always make your own group that doesnt care. If you are a clown who tries to be carried by much higher skill player you will probably soon just stand there without anyone to play but that's fine. And the crazy thing about the fear mongering in this thread is that it is already perfectly possible and happening. These extreme scenarios dreamed up are not realistic. Even if there were a bunch of people making groups only letting oranges and above join, there are far far more people outside of that range. These people can just make their own groups in that case and literally not feel any difference.

You should read back a bit. In all candor, the poster they're speaking of was the one that brought this on. The individual in question tried to silence someone else based on their parses, which in turn lead to them getting called out on their own performance. Casting stones from a glass house and all that.

I have and I suggest you do the same because I've said exactly this 15 pages ago. We were at this point already before the katt arc of the thread.

[Kaurhz]

The mentality exhibited in this thread is precisely why third-party will never get true clarity from the developers. A lot of people simply cannot use them responsibly enough so you're only ever going to get the silent rule of don't ask, don't tell.