OK, I gotta vent. Are people stupid or... Stupid?

[Wynn]

no the allowing people to have all crafts leveled was not the mistake. the mistake was made when yoshi increased the exp gained per synth, added massive bonuses on leve turn ins, reduced shard costs allowing cheaper leveling, and added even more increases in exp gained on additional quality.

the easy leveling for crafting classes has led to the same thing in dol/doh. it's too fast and too easy to level so everyone is getting leveled as fast as they can. i know of many people that only started crafting after all of the exp increases because it was easy and not because they cared about crafting.

they need to tighten back down the exp on all dow/dom/dol/dol classes and stop allowing the easy leveling that is destroying the game from the inside. the easier it is to level the more people are going to continue hitting all 50's on every class because it is easy to do so.

I agree. I feel that super fast leveling is definitely a contributing factor too.

But with slower craft leveling comes more product output. To me, that would seem like it would only compound the problem in our current state of the game, not relieve it.

We didn't have this issue when leveling was slower before because we used to grind on part or material recipes that crafters often just vendored while leveling. Finished items were solely put up on the wards for making money. Now people have to grind on mostly finished items due to the crafting updates and are just trying to get back something on their grind items which were expensive to make.

I said back before recipe simplification that the market would flood with items due to removing parts and trying to sell anything would be almost impossible. I also said crafters would go broke trying to level because they would not be able to make a return at all on the stuff they were grinding on. I think I remember you saying so as well. People told us we were wrong and now here we are. Surprise!

[darkstarpoet1]

I agree. I feel that super fast leveling is definitely a contributing factor too.

But with slower craft leveling comes more product output. To me, that would seem like it would only compound the problem in our current state of the game, not relieve it.

We didn't have this issue when leveling was slower before because we used to grind on part or material recipes that crafters often just vendored while leveling. Finished items were solely put up on the wards for making money. Now people have to grind on mostly finished items due to the crafting updates and are just trying to get back something on their grind items which were expensive to make.

I said back before recipe simplification that the market would flood with items due to removing parts and trying to sell anything would be almost impossible. I also said crafters would go broke trying to level because they would not be able to make a return at all on the stuff they were grinding on. I think I remember you saying so as well. People told us we were wrong and now here we are. Surprise!

oh i know. we both warned them about this issue, but they refused to listen. now the issue has arrived they want to blame other things besides what they were warned about.

you also have to remember with a higher leveling curve less people would be leveling those classes so that would work to balance it out. alot of people are leveling crafts because it is so easy, but don't care for crafting. yes, more gear would come per person due to grinding, but less people would be grinding. if it was harder to level every class then less people would do it because they would be concentrating on the classes they are interested in and not doing things because it is fast and easy.

the other way to look at it. right now most everyone in game has at least one craft to cap. even is they take and only let people take up one class beyond once cap is increased the same problem will exist. leveling is so easy people will just raise that one class and still have the same or even higher competition for selling. here's an example of what i mean.

right now a random number of 6k people just to keep numbers easy have at least 1 craft capped and another 1k people have every class capped. there's 8 dol's. those 1k people and the 6k people have a total of 14k classes at cap total.

when 2.0 hits and leveling stays super give me easy then all of those new players are going to do the same thing we already have. if they do not drastically slow down the leveling curve you are likely to have more people with a capped class than you have total on each server now even if you only allow one class past 50 per person. even if you made it those same 7k people with a single class to cap and add in another 10x that due to the easy leveling then it would still make matters worse than it is now.

edit: the reason i put in the slower leveling curve as a way to relieve the mass of output is with slower leveling in all classes then low, mid, and high level gear is in demand. that in itself triples the amount of gear that is needed. right now the only gear in demand is high level stuff. for example if 1-30 didn't take around 1 hour to get through then people would actually need to get that low and mid level gear. right now they just skip by it because it is not needed while they are sitting on their chocobo being power leveled.

[Roj]

As a new player I am rather wary of even bothering to level DoH at all until post 2.0. I suspect they will be changing it all again, for the even easier, so why waste my time, especially if I can't sell anything for profit?

[Lux_Rayna]

As a new player I am rather wary of even bothering to level DoH at all until post 2.0. I suspect they will be changing it all again, for the even easier, so why waste my time, especially if I can't sell anything for profit?

1) Buying overpriced gear you need sucks

2) Not paying for repairs is awesome

3) melding materia to your gear is even awesomer

4) Being able to make things you need is rewarding

5) You can always make money, just have to know how.

[darkstarpoet1]

As a new player I am rather wary of even bothering to level DoH at all until post 2.0. I suspect they will be changing it all again, for the even easier, so why waste my time, especially if I can't sell anything for profit?

my advice would be get the levels while you can. yoshi has stated that 2.0 would have slower leveling if i am not mistaken.

[Wynn]

As a new player I am rather wary of even bothering to level DoH at all until post 2.0. I suspect they will be changing it all again, for the even easier, so why waste my time, especially if I can't sell anything for profit?

This pretty much sums up crafting right now IMO.

[darkstarpoet1]

This pretty much sums up crafting right now IMO.

and it will only continue to get worse as more premade gear drops that is better than anything that can be crafted and everyone can take a week or so and get a craft to cap if they want to take the time to do so. the more premade gear that drops with good stats will take away more of the people buying finished gear from the markets.

[Lux_Rayna]

and it will only continue to get worse as more premade gear drops that is better than anything that can be crafted and everyone can take a week or so and get a craft to cap if they want to take the time to do so. the more premade gear that drops with good stats will take away more of the people buying finished gear from the markets.

Umm guys, you are forgetting about the awesome class/job-specific high level recipes crafters are gonna be getting. Can't wait, itll be a good day to mine.

[darkstarpoet1]

Umm guys, you are forgetting about the awesome class/job-specific high level recipes crafters are gonna be getting. Can't wait, itll be a good day to mine.

no i haven't forgotten, but it's a very thin balancing act they have to stay on for those to have worth. if it's worse than the job gear then it will never sell, but if it's the best in the game then it makes the dungeons loot worthless. i don't want to bank on it being the worse, but also won't bank on it being the best because they have been doing a pretty bad job of balancing the gear so far.

[Asiaine]

Is it too late for Quiz Time? ; ;

The product is worth whatever the people are willing to pay for it.
The product sells for whatever the manufacturer is willing to sell it at.

If it takes Person A 1 hour and 50k to make an item, and wants to sell it for 100k, why should this affect Person B who needs 5 minutes and 30k to make the item?

Why should someone who buys 50k items at ward, spend 2 minutes crafting, expect to sell it for 100k?
Whereas someone who spends 1 hour harvesting good, should sell it for 30k ?

If you pay attention, you will tend to notice a trend. It will be gil/hour.

This was EXTREMELY obvious in Vana'diel, and can be well noticed here if you pay enough attention (especially with the gathering of raw materials).

People are less impressed that you crafted something, or harvested something. People are more impressed by how much effort went into accomplishing the task.

If it takes me 1 hour to get 100 Oak Wood, and 1 hour to get 33 Mahogany wood, then there is a fair chance that Mahogany wood will sell at 3x the price of Oak Wood.

Do basic maths from there, and the rest becomes obvious.
Add in the fact that people have priorities over ensuring someone else makes a profit (I would rather sell 10 bows I made at 20k (and break even), so I can have gil and continue crafting, rather than sell it at 50k but wait a week, just to make someone else selling it at 50k happy).

There is more to the market than making 'whoever is selling that item at the price they want to sell it at' happy.

Also I notice a lack of mention on how it can be profitable to sell to NPCs (which it is).

So far, it appears the majority of this 'discussion' is more akin to the desire of price-fixing rather than the concept of free market (or intelligent market analysis).

Those who learn and understand will get ahead.
Those who do not and simply expect, will fall behind.


As for would-be crafters, please do not be discouraged. There is plenty of opportunities to make easy profit from crafting. You may have to spend a couple hours to market research, but they are there.