OK, I gotta vent. Are people stupid or... Stupid?

[Irzibe]

OK so the point is still being missed by many, because apparently we were talking about real life </sarcasm>. So let's do this BACKWARDS:

I lose 1 million gil trying to get a ring+1 because I kept failing the synth (80-90% chance fail remember?) and the materials cost me 200k per attempt.

After the 5th try I make a ring+1 and want to sell it for a profit... God forbid I want to make a decent profit because you know, I LOST 1 MILLION GIL earlier.

Why is my precious ring+1 selling for exactly the same price it costs to make?

Answer me that Lux_Rayna.

Edit: Oh right, let me guess, you're probably gonna say something along the lines "People farmed their own materials! They lost ZERO gil!" Well then if you're such a business man, you should probably know that TIME IS MONEY. Lesson number 1 isn't it? I have a friend that's a Miner50 and he said he gets around 3 ores +1 in a couple of hours or so, and that ring+1 uses 3x ores +1.

[Lstkaws]

OK so the point is still being missed by many, because apparently we were talking about real life </sarcasm>. So let's do this BACKWARDS:

I lose 1 million gil trying to get a ring+1 because I kept failing the synth (80-90% chance fail remember?) and the materials cost me 200k per attempt.

After the 5th try I make a ring+1 and want to sell it for a profit... God forbid I want to make a decent profit because you know, I LOST 1 MILLION GIL earlier.

Why is my precious ring+1 selling for exactly the same price it costs to make?

Answer me that Lux_Rayna.

I will answer this. Once again the answer is........ you guessed it DEMAND! The demand for your +1 ring is too low for you to sell at a profit. QUIT MAKING THEM. To continue making them is foolish. You will continue to lose gil. Supply side economics my friend.

If this was a Chinese game you could just get SE to subsidize your crafting. Maybe you can talk SE into allowing you to NPC your ring for a 10% profit. Still a decent margin in some industries although jewelry is not one of those industries.

[Irzibe]

I will answer this. Once again the answer is........ you guessed it DEMAND! The demand for your +1 ring is too low for you to sell at a profit. QUIT MAKING THEM. To continue making them is foolish. You will continue to lose gil. Supply side economics my friend.

Except I only made the 1 ring and I still can't sell it for more than 10k profit. Again, I refuse to sell something that would've cost me 200k gil loss... for a 10k profit.

[Lstkaws]

Except I only made the 1 ring and I still can't sell it for more than 10k profit. Again, I refuse to sell something that would've cost me 200k gil loss... for a 10k profit.

I can understand that position, and even respect it. In that case you need to be willing to hold that ring until demand rises. If you refuse to sell a current median price, then you must wait.

[Wynn]

I can understand that position, and even respect it. In that case you need to be willing to hold that ring until demand rises. If you refuse to sell a current median price, then you must wait.

Wait forever by the look of things... unless something changes in 2.0. I dunno, I got faith. Yoshi did make comments about crafting a while back so who knows what's in store.

All I can say is I'm glad I made my fortune back when the wards were still a bitch to navigate. LOL

[Lstkaws]

Wait forever by the look of things... unless something changes in 2.0. I dunno, I got faith. Yoshi did make comments about crafting a while back so who knows what's in store.

All I can say is I'm glad I made my fortune back when the wards were still a bitch to navigate. LOL

Right now there are better ways to make gil than crafting or gathering. My LS uses crafts to help members and not much else other than having fun. I have always made a decent margin in crafting but it is nothing compared to the margins to be had elsewhere.

[Lux_Rayna]

OK so the point is still being missed by many, because apparently we were talking about real life </sarcasm>. So let's do this BACKWARDS:

I lose 1 million gil trying to get a ring+1 because I kept failing the synth (80-90% chance fail remember?) and the materials cost me 200k per attempt.

After the 5th try I make a ring+1 and want to sell it for a profit... God forbid I want to make a decent profit because you know, I LOST 1 MILLION GIL earlier.

Why is my precious ring+1 selling for exactly the same price it costs to make?

Answer me that Lux_Rayna.

Edit: Oh right, let me guess, you're probably gonna say something along the lines "People farmed their own materials! They lost ZERO gil!" Well then if you're such a business man, you should probably know that TIME IS MONEY. Lesson number 1 isn't it?

Dude my first post in this thread was trying to help you. Then you and whatshisface started attacking my POV when all I was stating was the facts that lead to your situation. It became "ppl like you" and all this other nonsense. I was being helpful earlier so I have no idea why you think im here to troll you. I'm just defending myself from attacks I didnt deserve, as the forum has a habit of giving. To answer your question again:

You are buying mats at inflated prices. That is the only reason. I told you this before, ore is a lot more useful than finished products because

1) crafters like you buy it to make items to keep
2) crafters like you buy it to make items to sell
3) crafters like you buy it to level up your skills

In the event that any of your hq items become in high demand, guess what? Electrum ore becomes a loooot more valuable. Of course, you would *think* that it would make finished products more valuable too right? It should, but it doesn't. Because now everyone is flooding the market with finished products. To top it all off, these are "new" items that dont have established normal prices...so anything goes. You will see undercuts galore. And ppl that mined their mats will undercut the most. Too much competition on one item, so price deflates to ridiculous levels. I'm not saying its right, i'm saying thats the way it works. It can work that way because its possible to make something for 0 cost if you put in enough time, unlike the real world.

You're probably wondering why ore doesn't go that low. Its because the demand for ore is greater than the demand for a particular piece of jewelry. Sure an hq ring is great, but only for ppl who want hq rings. What about ppl that want hq gorgets, hq chokers, hq earrings? Bracelets? Ore satisfies all of those ppl, your ring only satisfies one type..the ppl that want a ring. Additionally, hq items have a high chance of failure, meaning you have to buy mats all over again to make it. That means you need more ore, which makes the demand for ore greater. This is why ore can stay at a certain price level, even above finished products. Its counter-intuitive but thats how it works.

EDIT: Also note that ore has been around forever...so it has established/accepted community prices. In games and in the real world, you will find that items will sell at a generally acceptable level, so they are less susceptible to ridiculously low prices or ridiculously high prices. You'll never see electrum selling en masse at 1k, for example. Having a long price history cannot be overlooked lol

What I was trying to tell you in my first post is that you just have to accept it and work around it. Making money or gil is a solo activity, ppl will do whatever it takes to "win" without regard for anyone else. As such, ugly things will happen to crafters like you who aren't careful about what to buy, when to buy it, what to make, and when to sell it. Look at the prices for an item first. Then look at the prices of the mats. It helps if youve always known how much mats have been over the months, but right now its impossible. Estimate what your profit margin will be, conservatively. Factor in a few failures. If its crap, make something else. You have to approach it like a business and plan ahead of time.

I'm not trying to be a demon, I'm trying to help you.

[Irzibe]

Dude my first post in this thread was trying to help you. Then you and whatshisface started attacking my POV when all I was stating was the facts that lead to your situation. It became "ppl like you" and all this other nonsense. I was being helpful earlier so I have no idea why you think im here to troll you. I'm just defending myself from attacks I didnt deserve, as the forum has a habit of giving. To answer your question again:

You are buying mats at inflated prices. That is the only reason. I told you this before, ore is a lot more useful than finished products because

1) crafters like you buy it to make items to keep
2) crafters like you buy it to make items to sell
3) crafters like you buy it to level up your skills

In the event that any of your hq items become in high demand, guess what? Electrum ore becomes a loooot more valuable. Of course, you would *think* that it would make finished products more valuable too right? It should, but it doesn't. Because now everyone is flooding the market with finished products. To top it all off, these are "new" items that dont have established normal prices...so anything goes. You will see undercuts galore. And ppl that mined their mats will undercut the most. Too much competition on one item, so price deflates to ridiculous levels. I'm not saying its right, i'm saying thats the way it works. It can work that way because its possible to make something for 0 cost if you put in enough time, unlike the real world.

You're probably wondering why ore doesn't go that low. Its because the demand for ore is greater than the demand for a particular piece of jewelry. Sure an hq ring is great, but only for ppl who want hq rings. What about ppl that want hq gorgets, hq chokers, hq earrings? Bracelets? Ore satisfies all of those ppl, your ring only satisfies one type..the ppl that want a ring. Additionally, hq items have a high chance of failure, meaning you have to buy mats all over again to make it. That means you need more ore, which makes the demand for ore greater. This is why ore can stay at a certain price level, even above finished products. Its counter-intuitive but thats how it works.

EDIT: Also note that ore has been around forever...so it has established/accepted community prices. In games and in the real world, you will find that items will sell at a generally acceptable level, so they are less susceptible to ridiculously low prices or ridiculously high prices. You'll never see electrum selling en masse at 1k, for example. Having a long price history cannot be overlooked lol

What I was trying to tell you in my first post is that you just have to accept it and work around it. Making money or gil is a solo activity, ppl will do whatever it takes to "win" without regard for anyone else. As such, ugly things will happen to crafters like you who aren't careful about what to buy, when to buy it, what to make, and when to sell it. Look at the prices for an item first. Then look at the prices of the mats. It helps if youve always known how much mats have been over the months, but right now its impossible. Estimate what your profit margin will be, conservatively. Factor in a few failures. If its crap, make something else. You have to approach it like a business and plan ahead of time.

I'm not trying to be a demon, I'm trying to help you.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but please, go to my original initial post, read it, then read your post that I quoted here and tell me if my original post regarding the final edit at the bottom of the post is true or not.

Just say true or false, don't explain stuff.

[Lux_Rayna]

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but please, go to my original initial post, read it, then read your post that I quoted here and tell me if my original post regarding the final edit at the bottom of the post is true or not.

Just say true or false, don't explain stuff.

True.

I will say you can make a profit, but you have to try a lot harder to do it. Imo you'd make more money just mining your mats but that takes a serious time investment. And in all that time you were mining, you could be making money. My suggestion to you is to think about your target market. I'd say you are thinking too small. I know you said not to explain but I dont want you to just give up and say crafting sucks. Here it goes.

A miner has one customer: the crafters
EDIT: sometimes dow/dom jobs too if they know a crafter

DOW/DOM have three customers: dow/dom jobs (gear drops), gatherers (gear drops), crafters (gear/mat drops).

A crafter has how many customers? Take a moment to think about it
..........
...................
..........................
..........................
......................
................
...........
.......

A crafter has 3 customers: gatherers (tools/gear), dow and dom (weapons/gear), annnnd...crafters!! (mats).

You probably guessed dow/dom at a minimum, and maybe gatherers, but did you guess crafters? If not, then thats another angle you can exploit!! As a crafter you have to look at all of these markets and figure out where demand is in that market, and where supply is low. I can say as a miner I wish there were more picks in the AH. Ive been buying crap for like 50k because who has time to get that crap crafted when I need to mine? I know crafters who buy ingots all the time, or dow/dom jobs that know crafters but just need to buy the mats. In other words, you need to scan the market (warning: its a pain) and figure out where your skills are needed most, and what yield the greatest profit margin.

My tip to you is to look for something with a small amount of competition, but a regular price history (a few sells a day minimum). Then look at the mats and see what you can do. Look for places where ingots sell for more than the ore it takes to make them, or where plates sell more than the ingots...basically look for any and every angle you can to make money. All you have to do is scan the market, buy mats, craft real quick, put crap back on the market. But to do this you have to be willing to study, scan, and play the market. Its *work*, but you spend way less time running around than I do, and there are some serious chances to score big.

Hopefully that gives you some ideas. If you decide thats too much work for you, by all means just give up and go mine. But I think you'll find that once you get the hang of it its really not so bad. Harder? If by harder you mean "requires more thought" then sure. However you'd be surprised how much gatherers/crafters/dow/dom jobs will pay for some convenience. Find where that convenience is needed. Learn optimal gear, mats required, for everything single class..what ppl like to farm with, skill up off of, what finished products ppl like to sell. Learn *all* of that and look for opportunity. The more you know, the quicker you'll find quick profits, and the quicker you'll make money without ever leaving the market wards.

Anyway thats my advice. Good luck!