Some things I do not like.

[ty_taurus]

I think I'm the odd one out on this one, but I really don't like having completely divorced AoE buttons in a game that doesn't really have engaging AoE situations. Like, I don't really see why we need to dedicate 2 different buttons to things like Xenoglossy and Foul, Shoha and Shoha II, Bloodletter and Rain of Death, or even combo buttons. Take MNK for example, I feel like you could have Bootshine upgrade to Shadow of the Destroyer, Twin Snakes upgrade to Four-Point Fury, and Snap Punch upgrade to Rockbreaker, (maintaing higher single target damage with falloff instead of flat damage to all targets), and you'd have 6 buttons instead of 9, not change your Single Target Rotation, and just have your AoE rotation be one specific combo within that Single Target Rotation, not to mention you could have Forbidden Chakra upgrade to Enlightenment as well.

I don't feel like having AoE buttons separate is really doing anything for us. There are a rare handful of fights where making the choice between single target and AoE is somewhat an opportunity to squeeze out a little more DPS. Like in Tower at Paradigm's Breach, Hansel and Gretel are an interesting boss where they're regularly moving both away and close together, and making those decisions to try and hit them both (assuming your AoE buttons are a gain on two targets) is a little more varied, but beyond those few fights... with the Forbidden Chakra example... When are you ever going to actively decide between one or the other? Either there are multiple enemies, or their aren't.

So I agree a little with SailorCeti that SMN, ironically, has a lot of unnecessary buttons for how it currently plays, though I wish rather than just having such a departmentalized approach to single target and AoE, that you had a 1-2 combo with your AoE buttons like with how Shadowbringers Phoenix phase worked--how you'd alternate between Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory, and just do that with your Ruin III and Tri-Disaster, as well as your Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. Though I don't see why both Energy Drain and Energy Siphon need to exist, nor Fester and Painflare. So even though SMN is still a very bare-bones job and definitely needs to expand on its current gameplay, even it has unnecessary buttons despite that.

But I don't think most players agree with me on the single-target vs AoE stance.

[SailorCeti]

So I agree a little with SailorCeti that SMN, ironically, has a lot of unnecessary buttons for how it currently plays, though I wish rather than just having such a departmentalized approach to single target and AoE, that you had a 1-2 combo with your AoE buttons like with how Shadowbringers Phoenix phase worked--how you'd alternate between Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory, and just do that with your Ruin III and Tri-Disaster, as well as your Gemshine and Precious Brilliance. Though I don't see why both Energy Drain and Energy Siphon need to exist, nor Fester and Painflare. So even though SMN is still a very bare-bones job and definitely needs to expand on its current gameplay, even it has unnecessary buttons despite that.

This is what I'm talking about, though I do understand why ST and AOE is seperate (AOE does less damage, but to more mobs). So, with SMN, we have Ruin and Gemshine for single-target with Tri-Disaster and Precious Brilliance for AOE. However, Gemshine and Precious Brilliance aren't even clickable unless you have a summon up. When they are up, I'm using them instead of Ruin and Tri-disaster. It's a waste of space. Instead of having Gemshine and Precious Brilliance become active and change depending on summon, just have Ruin and Tri-disaster handle it instead. Free up a couple of spaces.

Yes, you can do it in a macro, but that's not optimal either because the icon is static. You aren't sure what's being cast. For example:

/ac "Gemshine"
/ac "Ruin"

This casts gemshine (including whatever it becomes due to current summon), if available. If not, casts Ruin. BUT! It doesn't update the micon. Using:

/micon"Gemshime"
/ac "Gemshine"
/micon"Ruin"
/ac "Ruin"

This still works, but the micon remains Gemshine.

Anyway, the point is, unless you have a summon out, GS and PB don't do anything. Wasted space. It seems like a much better idea to morph Ruin and TD instead. This is what I mean by "button bloat."

Then, we have Ruin IV, which is suddenly an AOE and procced. Um, why? Let Ruin III upgrade directly to IV, along with the above. Another button gone with no loss of utility.

If macros were a little more robust, and were queueable, things might be different. Now, as I said, I'm fine with SMN as is, thought it could be even better. The point is that I see even more of this in other jobs. It's all a bit overwhelming for me. I'd love to play other jobs, but as it is, I'm pigeon-holed into SMN. My bars are simple:

3) bahamut, garuda, titan, ifrit (in phase order) [Mouse]
2) Gemshine, Precious Brilliance, Fester, Painflare (single, aoe, single, aoe) [F1-F4]
1) Ruin, Tri-disaster, Energy Drain, Energy Siphon (single, aoe, single, aoe) [1-4]

The rest are mostly buffs and role actions and fill the last four buttons on each row, grouped accordingly.

[ty_taurus]

This is what I'm talking about, though I do understand why ST and AOE is seperate (AOE does less damage, but to more mobs). So, with SMN, we have Ruin and Gemshine for single-target with Tri-Disaster and Precious Brilliance for AOE. However, Gemshine and Precious Brilliance aren't even clickable unless you have a summon up. When they are up, I'm using them instead of Ruin and Tri-disaster. It's a waste of space. Instead of having Gemshine and Precious Brilliance become active and change depending on summon, just have Ruin and Tri-disaster handle it instead. Free up a couple of spaces.

Yes, you can do it in a macro, but that's not optimal either because the icon is static. You aren't sure what's being cast. For example:

/ac "Gemshine"
/ac "Ruin"

This casts gemshine (including whatever it becomes due to current summon), if available. If not, casts Ruin. BUT! It doesn't update the micon. Using:

/micon"Gemshime"
/ac "Gemshine"
/micon"Ruin"
/ac "Ruin"

This still works, but the micon remains Gemshine.

Anyway, the point is, unless you have a summon out, GS and PB don't do anything. Wasted space. It seems like a much better idea to morph Ruin and TD instead. This is what I mean by "button bloat."

Then, we have Ruin IV, which is suddenly an AOE and procced. Um, why? Let Ruin III upgrade directly to IV, along with the above. Another button gone with no loss of utility.

If macros were a little more robust, and were queueable, things might be different. Now, as I said, I'm fine with SMN as is, thought it could be even better. The point is that I see even more of this in other jobs. It's all a bit overwhelming for me. I'd love to play other jobs, but as it is, I'm pigeon-holed into SMN. My bars are simple:

3) bahamut, garuda, titan, ifrit (in phase order) [Mouse]
2) Gemshine, Precious Brilliance, Fester, Painflare (single, aoe, single, aoe) [F1-F4]
1) Ruin, Tri-disaster, Energy Drain, Energy Siphon (single, aoe, single, aoe) [1-4]

The rest are mostly buffs and role actions and fill the last four buttons on each row, grouped accordingly.

Ruin IV does need to stay as its own button as you don't want to use it when Astral Impulse or Fountain of Fire are available during your Bahamut and Phoenix summons. You can hold onto that proc until after your summon goes away, so it does need to be independent. Otherwise you could probably have Ruin III and Tri-Disaster upgrade with your summons since that's what Bahamut and Phoenix do anyway.

I'm not sure how good this would work with this example... but here's a solution you could do better with macros for SMN:

On my SMN Hotbar, I have Ruin III set to hotbar 1, position 5 and Tri-Disaster set to hotbar 1, position 8. Using my hotbar positions as reference, you could do a macro like...

/micon "Summon Garuda"
/ac "Summon Garuda" <t>
/chotbar action "Gemshine" 1 5
/chotbar action "Precious Brilliance" 1 8
/wait 9
/chotbar action "Ruin III" 1 5
/chotbar action "Tri-Disaster" 1 8

This would replace Ruin III and Tri-Disaster with Gemshine and Precious Brilliance respectively for 9 seconds and return them back to Ruin III and Tri-Disaster. You could do this with all 3 summons while giving you enough time to use all your charges, but I would probably recommend making a separate macro that just reads:

/chotbar action "Ruin III" 1 5
/chotbar action"Tri-Disaster" 1 8

To forcibly get your buttons back if they don't change back when you need them too. Perhaps you may even just want to always do that manually so if you have to go do mechanics or something and can't use your charges, you don't lose those until you're ready to go back to Ruin III and Tri-Disaster. I don't know how well that would ultimately work for you, but maybe try it out and see how it feels. Just replace the "1 5" and "1 8" with wherever you have those buttons on your hotbar.

[SailorCeti]

Ruin IV does need to stay as its own button as you don't want to use it when Astral Impulse or Fountain of Fire are available during your Bahamut and Phoenix summons.

Okay. Why not?

[ty_taurus]

Okay. Why not?

Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire are stronger than Ruin IV, so you'd prefer using those over Ruin IV since your ability to cast those is limited to time. Also updated that message with a possible tip on macros for SMN.

[SailorCeti]

Astral Impulse and Fountain of Fire are stronger than Ruin IV, so you'd prefer using those over Ruin IV since your ability to cast those is limited to time. Also updated that message with a possible tip on macros for SMN.

Okay, I was wondering if it were something other than a priority thing. Though, I think you misunderstood what I originally said regarding Ruin IV. I-III are the same spell, only stronger, and single target. But with Ruin IV, it changes to a diminishing return type AOE that stands on it's own. They way I see it, one of two things should happen. 1) Make it single target and a direct upgrade to Ruin III, replacing it on the hotbar (my preference). 2) Give it a new name. I mean seriously? At this point, it's not Ruin anymore.

[ty_taurus]

Okay, I was wondering if it were something other than a priority thing. Though, I think you misunderstood what I originally said regarding Ruin IV. I-III are the same spell, only stronger, and single target. But with Ruin IV, it changes to a diminishing return type AOE that stands on it's own. They way I see it, one of two things should happen. 1) Make it single target and a direct upgrade to Ruin III, replacing it on the hotbar (my preference). 2) Give it a new name. I mean seriously? At this point, it's not Ruin anymore.

There really isn't a reason to remove Ruin IV as a proc at this time. As others have stated, SMN is currently viewed as incredibly bare-bones and lacking of more depth and gameplay, so taking away Ruin IV isn't going to help with that. What most players look for in a job like this is a gameplay loop that engages with them, SMN has shown to be below the level of simplicity that the player base is willing to tolerate. I realize you might come from a position where engaging with most jobs is a challenge, but if you're just looking to engage with the story, you can also just not use Ruin IV or take it off your hotbar. Casual content does not require optimized gameplay, or even good gameplay to be honest. Do what's comfortable for you.

On the topic of simple gameplay, I think MNK still has its cheesy Dragon kick rotation that essentially allows you to bypass most of MNK's mechanics and still put out close to perfect DPS. I'm no expert on it, but it might be worth looking into.