Get rid of SAM Limit break gimmick already (FL)

[Kansene]

I think some clarification is needed when it comes to one side of the argument, as I get the impression there are those who don't quite end up on the same page:

It's not about the fact that it's an instant kill.

It's not about not noticing the buff on a SAM you can clearly see.

It's not about not getting away from the SAM you can clearly see in time.

It's about how a dense group of 10 people might have a SAM in it, and how dealing 1 damage to the SAM by accident without even targeting them can instantly kill you.

Should the answer simply be to never use AoE when you see a group of enemies?
As a brd, my AoE also buffs my party. Goodbye to an essential part of my job kit I guess?

Should the answer be to constantly look for SAMs and avoid them? There's already a lot to keep track of, things are hectic and chaotic, singling out lone individuals and keeping a constant eye on them is not something you have the luxury of doing when teams clash.

If a single ability from a single job starts majorly affecting how a game mode is played, said ability should be looked into imo.

DISCLAIMER:
I'm not saying SAM is single-handedly warping a game mode (this honor belongs to pld abuse in Onsal). What I am saying is that it's a big point of annoyance because more often than not, you get oneshot without it being your fault.

In FL expecting people to keep individual tabs on each SAM they encounter is not a realistic expectation.

[Silhart]

I have to agree with Riley here. SAM's LB is anywhere near as OP as people make it out to be, and this is coming from a PvPer whose main Frontline jobs are heavy on AoE (DNC and DRG). If the game forced you to tab through every enemy to figure out what job they were, I would be able to understand where people are coming from. But Frontline gives you enough information you need to stop yourself from making bad plays. Even in a crowd, the blue/yellow/red text that clearly says 'Samurai' is hard to miss.

"I didn't know the SAM was there" or "I shouldn't be expected to sift through the crowd for a single Samurai" are quite frankly unacceptable excuses. The latter is a skill that should be expected of every Frontline player regardless of whether or not SAM LB is in the game. You need to be able to sort through a large crowd and identify at any given moment who the ideal kill targets are (i.e. who in the crowd is playing the squishiest jobs, and who is being targeted by your team) so that you can help your team secure kills. If you are already doing this, then keeping an eye out for those pesky SAMs should be second nature. If you're firing blindly into the crowd, then you are just padding and that's a bad habit that needs to be worked on, SAM LB or not.

It's also extremely unnecessary to just not use AoEs ever while a SAM is present. Even the jobs who are at risk of accidentally hitting into Chiten the most have different ways of dealing with it:
- DRG can simply reposition+reangle their line AoEs so that it misses SAMs (mouseover macros really help with this)
- SMN can put up barrier when dropping Bahamut, as well bind the SAM so that it stops them from using LB.
- DNC's Honing Ovation comes with a small party-wide barrier that can save yourself and other people from getting OHKO'd (and it is hilarious when it does happen)
- DRK can LB if they accidentally pull SAM into Salted Earth, which doubles as juicy burst that their team can follow up on. Failing that, they can TBN, accept that their setup is ruined and get the hell out of there.
It's also not the end of the world if you get Kuzushi'd - you can run towards the SAM's blind spot and pray that you're out of their field of view when their LB does go off. Or, if you're unfortunate enough to be the target, run away from your team, save them from getting OHKO'd and think about how to avoid getting hit next time.

Comparing SAM to MCH is also inappropriate when old Chainsaw was complete RNG with zero counterplay. Sam's LB is nothing against players with situational awareness--hell, even against players who somehow hit into Chiten, it still has many points where it can go wrong. I hate using the phrase "git gud", but a predictable LB that leaves so much of its power in the hands of its enemies should not be the target of nerfs. Especially not when there are more broken things in Frontlines lol

This whole thing where you get mad because people don't agree with you then ask if they ever played 'your' job is pretty sad. I know you don't know this, but you can hit escape prior to chiten and the next poor sod to attack you will be targeted. Now everyone between you and them who also hit you even if they didn't mean to will also die. Maybe you aren't as much of an authority as you think you are. This discounts the fact that we have known cheats out there that do the targeting for you.

SAM LB is not an AoE between you and your target. You can test this out in Wolves' Den:

If you stand where the arrow is and target the circled dummy, you'll notice the two in front of you will not get hit by Zantetsuken.

[Kansene]

snip

Not going to argue on every part of this, as we simply disagree in terms of what expectations should be placed on the average FL player. And that's fair enough. I don't think we'll be able to convince each other and that's okay.

The bottom line of my argument is essentially that I believe a OHKO is way too severe a punishment for situations like "a SAM ran behind my target and my AoE grazed them".
I'd be okay with a massive amount of damage, even a 95%max health hit. Just not 100%.

I strongly agree that firing blindly is bad, and that padding is bad. Mainly playing brd in FL my whole thing is setting up kills, and it's irksome when people don't follow through on the setup in favor of firing off all their CDs on a currently LBing pld.

We'll agree to disagree on just how much perception should be expected, I personally don't think insta-death should be the result of a single misfired spell.

[Osmond]

……..it’s not going to be changed, it’s best to just eat it…..unless you want MCH’s 95% dmg if proc’d, leaving a puny amount of health, just to get ok’d anyway with random AoEs. Let me guess, going to complain about that too will ya? I know you going to. Maybe remove chitin debuff and only straight dmg, going to complain that SAM dmg is terrible for KO’s? How about SAM just hits 1 target instead the target plus those get cross in it’s line. Well ppl going to complain for loss of identity of the job itself.

If those changes go into effect, Ppl WILL complain that the job is much worse due to loss of kill potential especially in CC.

[Silhart]

Not going to argue on every part of this, as we simply disagree in terms of what expectations should be placed on the average FL player. And that's fair enough. I don't think we'll be able to convince each other and that's okay.

The bottom line of my argument is essentially that I believe a OHKO is way too severe a punishment for situations like "a SAM ran behind my target and my AoE grazed them".
I'd be okay with a massive amount of damage, even a 95%max health hit. Just not 100%.

I strongly agree that firing blindly is bad, and that padding is bad. Mainly playing brd in FL my whole thing is setting up kills, and it's irksome when people don't follow through on the setup in favor of firing off all their CDs on a currently LBing pld.

We'll agree to disagree on just how much perception should be expected, I personally don't think insta-death should be the result of a single misfired spell.

That is fair. I've nothing further to argue anyway, though I do want to apologise for the condescending tone of my original post. I appreciate the civil response.

……..it’s not going to be changed, it’s best to just eat it…..unless you want MCH’s 95% dmg if proc’d, leaving a puny amount of health, just to get ok’d anyway with random AoEs. Let me guess, going to complain about that too will ya? I know you going to. Maybe remove chitin debuff and only straight dmg, going to complain that SAM dmg is terrible for KO’s? How about SAM just hits 1 target instead the target plus those get cross in it’s line. Well ppl going to complain for loss of identity of the job itself.

If those changes go into effect, Ppl WILL complain that the job is much worse due to loss of kill potential especially in CC.

I really don't want SAM's LB to be changed because I love the flavor and class fantasy tied to it (something that is really lacking in PvE nowadays), but I will say if they turned Zantetsuken into straight damage, I think that would be a huge buff over what we have now. Hear me out - depending on how much they increased its damage to make up for the loss of its OHKO, they would essentially be turning it into a second Skyshatter Dive that has the advantage of being both untelegraphed and unblockable. Under the right conditions (see: a DRK who knows what they're doing), team wipes with Zantetsuken would be more frequent, and I think that would make people complain even more than they do now. It would essentially go from being a punishing LB with reasonable counterplay to a teamwipe LB with zero counterplay. I've seen people suggest this change before, and all I can say is they should be careful what they wish for.

[Osmond]

I really don't want SAM's LB to be changed because I love the flavor and class fantasy tied to it (something that is really lacking in PvE nowadays), but I will say if they turned Zantetsuken into straight damage, I think that would be a huge buff over what we have now. Hear me out - depending on how much they increased its damage to make up for the loss of its OHKO, they would essentially be turning it into a second Skyshatter Dive that has the advantage of being both untelegraphed and unblockable. Under the right conditions (see: a DRK who knows what they're doing), team wipes with Zantetsuken would be more frequent, and I think that would make people complain even more than they do now. It would essentially go from being a punishing LB with reasonable counterplay to a teamwipe LB with zero counterplay. I've seen people suggest this change before, and all I can say is they should be careful what they wish for.

Lol, if they make Zante just a straight OP, line dmg LB like Skyshatter in FL. Cause they have to buff the potency due to lack of chiten. The amount of complaints in FL…….I can see it right now. Just SAM LBs flying everywhere, more hilarity.

[Elfidan]

Okay mister I never read the tooltips and came on to the forum to complain about a skill I lack the brain wrinkles not to get smoked by.

Nothing of substance to add. Ignore comments you can't contribute to in favor of insults. Go back to begging for 50% buffs to abilities that already do enough damage or attacking random dragoons while creeping on their lodestone. You're a joke.

I have to agree with Riley here. SAM's LB is anywhere near as OP as people make it out to be, and this is coming from a PvPer whose main Frontline jobs are heavy on AoE (DNC and DRG). If the game forced you to tab through every enemy to figure out what job they were, I would be able to understand where people are coming from. But Frontline gives you enough information you need to stop yourself from making bad plays. Even in a crowd, the blue/yellow/red text that clearly says 'Samurai' is hard to miss.

"I didn't know the SAM was there" or "I shouldn't be expected to sift through the crowd for a single Samurai" are quite frankly unacceptable excuses. The latter is a skill that should be expected of every Frontline player regardless of whether or not SAM LB is in the game. You need to be able to sort through a large crowd and identify at any given moment who the ideal kill targets are (i.e. who in the crowd is playing the squishiest jobs, and who is being targeted by your team) so that you can help your team secure kills. If you are already doing this, then keeping an eye out for those pesky SAMs should be second nature. If you're firing blindly into the crowd, then you are just padding and that's a bad habit that needs to be worked on, SAM LB or not.

It's also extremely unnecessary to just not use AoEs ever while a SAM is present. Even the jobs who are at risk of accidentally hitting into Chiten the most have different ways of dealing with it:
- DRG can simply reposition+reangle their line AoEs so that it misses SAMs (mouseover macros really help with this)
- SMN can put up barrier when dropping Bahamut, as well bind the SAM so that it stops them from using LB.
- DNC's Honing Ovation comes with a small party-wide barrier that can save yourself and other people from getting OHKO'd (and it is hilarious when it does happen)
- DRK can LB if they accidentally pull SAM into Salted Earth, which doubles as juicy burst that their team can follow up on. Failing that, they can TBN, accept that their setup is ruined and get the hell out of there.
It's also not the end of the world if you get Kuzushi'd - you can run towards the SAM's blind spot and pray that you're out of their field of view when their LB does go off. Or, if you're unfortunate enough to be the target, run away from your team, save them from getting OHKO'd and think about how to avoid getting hit next time.

Comparing SAM to MCH is also inappropriate when old Chainsaw was complete RNG with zero counterplay. Sam's LB is nothing against players with situational awareness--hell, even against players who somehow hit into Chiten, it still has many points where it can go wrong. I hate using the phrase "git gud", but a predictable LB that leaves so much of its power in the hands of its enemies should not be the target of nerfs. Especially not when there are more broken things in Frontlines lol


SAM LB is not an AoE between you and your target. You can test this out in Wolves' Den:

If you stand where the arrow is and target the circled dummy, you'll notice the two in front of you will not get hit by Zantetsuken.

Multiple jobs use aoe as half their toolkit. Imagine never using any of that because of one ability on one job. Riley also misquoted it by the way. It's a 20 yalm range ending in a 5 yalm aoe. When I realized I was thinking of how other limit breaks worked I did not continue to argue this. Chainsaw might work one time in the entire game. That's not even comparable in any way shape or form even when it was a full K.O. before it's adjustment. Fantasy over gameplay is a foolish way to think. If that were the case then dragoon limit break should dismiss demi-bahamut because it's a dragon killer. Reaper should be assassinating people because the class fantasy is being an assassin if you didn't know.

……..it’s not going to be changed, it’s best to just eat it…..unless you want MCH’s 95% dmg if proc’d, leaving a puny amount of health, just to get ok’d anyway with random AoEs. Let me guess, going to complain about that too will ya? I know you going to. Maybe remove chitin debuff and only straight dmg, going to complain that SAM dmg is terrible for KO’s? How about SAM just hits 1 target instead the target plus those get cross in it’s line. Well ppl going to complain for loss of identity of the job itself.

If those changes go into effect, Ppl WILL complain that the job is much worse due to loss of kill potential especially in CC.

Again, chainsaw is a very rare proc and it's not even close to the same thing as being killed by accident. A chainsaw proc has your name on it. A random zantetsuken is to whom it may concern.

Lol, if they make Zante just a straight OP, line dmg LB like Skyshatter in FL. Cause they have to buff the potency due to lack of chiten. The amount of complaints in FL…….I can see it right now. Just SAM LBs flying everywhere, more hilarity.

Skyshatter isn't a line either. You know conflict balance is separate from frontline right? That's why you don't see the melee damage reduction in conflict. Now why was the reduction added? Because multiple job aoe made it nigh impossible to play melee. So instead of changing each job that uses aoe as rotation they slapped a damage reduction band aid on the melee. If it had only been summoner causing the issue you would probably have seen adjustment to summoner because that's how common-sense works. All you conflict players coming in to comment on frontline issues are welcome but maybe know what it is your commenting on.

[Osmond]

Skyshatter isn't a line either. You know conflict balance is separate from frontline right? That's why you don't see the melee damage reduction in conflict. Now why was the reduction added? Because multiple job aoe made it nigh impossible to play melee. So instead of changing each job that uses aoe as rotation they slapped a damage reduction band aid on the melee. If it had only been summoner causing the issue you would probably have seen adjustment to summoner because that's how common-sense works. All you conflict players coming in to comment on frontline issues are welcome but maybe know what it is you’re commenting on.

……..just stop. Many already know why the reductions were added and ppl complain about that after the change. Ppl got what they ask for and they hate it. Now ppl want to change SAM’s and PLD’s LB because it drives them nuts on FL, it’s the same thing. Again, I know what’s going to happen. YOU WILL COMPLAIN that the job isn’t what it used to be, but it’ll be too late. You got what you ask for.

[Elfidan]

……..just stop. Many already know why the reductions were added and ppl complain about that after the change. Ppl got what they ask for and they hate it. Now ppl want to change SAM’s and PLD’s LB because it drives them nuts on FL, it’s the same thing. Again, I know what’s going to happen. YOU WILL COMPLAIN that the job isn’t what it used to be, but it’ll be too late. You got what you ask for.

It wasn't what people asked for it was a temporary measure to keep the player base from sliding back into thirty-minute queue during primetime. You keep citing how it's going to affect conflict if frontline receives any changes. That is why this was brought up. Yes, people will complain when they see things that don't make sense. Why are you afraid of change? Change is an essential part of life. If nothing ever changed you wouldn't be here on the internet complaining about change. Imagine never changing anything from the first time you did something. You would never improve. Are all changes good? No, they aren't but nobody can see the future and know whether a change will be good or not. Trying to shout down people you don't agree with using points that have nothing to do with the conversation seems to be your modus operandi.

[Garten]

I Just find dishonest when ppl Say: "you were complaining about something, now they made a change and you still complain"..

NOBODY asked for the increase in DR, for example what "I" was asking (cause i thought It was good for the job balance in Frontline) was to add something like a "damage fall off" of aoe skills After the 4th/5th target. I dont think that was unresonable, am i wrong?

But maybe It was too hard for SE to pull off and i went the Easy route. As usual.