How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

That is true, but a lot of Final Fantasy history is single player RPGs where you, as the player, are (1) controlling an entire party, in a combat system that features (2) plenty of randomized outgoing damage and (3) plenty of status effects and elemental affinities.

I agree well enough with that. That's why I look at FFXI as the "This is what WHM adapted to an MMO should probably be". If you do a deep dive - I've never played FFXI other than a free trial, but we can look over the webpages like the one I linked above - you can see that it's a similar story to FFXIV's WHM in terms of damage tools. Basically Glare, Dia, Holy with both single target and AOE versions of the spells.

Granted, FFXI is a pretty different game, but as you look through the spell list, note there's no Water, Earth, or Aero spells in the White Mage toolkit. Like...at all. Instead, WHM has access to the Bar- line of spells (which are basically Protect/Shell for specific elements), single target (Cure line) and AOE (Curaga line) heals, and a far more complicated debuff cleanse system than Esuna, as well as having utility spells like Teleport, stat buffs for main stats like Vit and such, and even Sneak. That's what I think a WHM in an MMO has that's fitting to it.

Honestly, I personally feel like the Class -> Job system is just going to go at some point, because there's a lot of wonkiness in it. It's probably only still in the game because changing it would be trouble on the coding side, even though every Job introduced from HW on didn't engage with the system, especially once Cross-Class was removed. WHM coming off of CNJ was a disjointed mistake that causes a lot of confusion with some players liking the Druid-like nature of CNJ and being upset when they put on the White and gradually progress into being what a traditional White Mage is instead. Most game lore doesn't go Druid -> Holy Priest, so people that like the Druid are upset that the end up with Holy Priest.

I am a bit curious, though. Why is WHM your preferred healer? Aesthetics?

I don't ask to pry, just curious. You note it feels too simple to you, but all three of the other healers (even SGE) is more complex in their own ways. So I can't think of any reason other than Aesthetics OR that WHM is easy/straightforward that someone would prefer it, but if said person thinks it is too simple (near synonym for too easy?), then I can't quite square that circle.

How would you make a more simplified BLM rotation for a healer? Isn't that arguably what RDM is? Their Mana system makes their caster rotation arguably a simplified BLM rotation. And, as I noted above, WHM has a (slightly higher, but still) similar APM to BLM. In effect, WHM right now is arguably the Healer version of what BLM is to DPS - and what WAR is to Tanks.

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The just play ultimate argument is kinda the most toxic and gaslighting one in this discussion

And literally WHO is asking for it?

And come now, it's hardly "the most toxic" OR the most "gaslighting" thing in THIS discussion. You can't say a thing is happening (and the most toxic thing) in a discussion when it isn't even IN this discussion. It wasn't even mentioned in this discussion, I don't believe, until Flowerfairy said it.

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To follow-up ...
"I can't speak for White Mages, but I can say that healing at endgame as a Scholar is a blast. With DoTs, off-global cooldown abilities, dodging, and pet management to deal with I am rarely ever bored. I am literally always doing something in dungeons, and that feels amazing.

I think this is what's lost (from you guys' side) in this discussion. Note the first 6 words there. I put them in italics.

Contrast that by looking at the part you bolded. Other than DoTs and dodging, those were things SCH had that WHM did not. WHM had 3 oGCDs, Presence of Mind (which was used for healing not damage), Divine Seal (which was used for healing not damage), and Benediction (which was used for emergencies at that point in the game's history, not as a routine use tool). WHM had no pet management, and no DoT interaction, nor as many DoTs as SCH had since it could Cross-Class WHM's Aero, had Shadow Flare's field effect, and for a BIT anyway, could Cross-Class BLM's Thunder (though that was removed fairly early on)

WHM didn't play that way, SCH did. A LOT OF PEOPLE happened to like that. A LOT OF PEOPLE also happened not to, and played WHM. Keep in mind at the time WHM was primarily a GCD healer that healed through use of Medica 2, Medica 1, Cure 2 AND Cure 1 (because MP was an issue back then), and occasionally dipped into Cleric to apply DoTs if the fight was braindead snore easy, which no hard content was.

But how about we actually look at ARR history?

I think it might be instructive for us all to look back to the time we're talking about here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsPp9IQXuc

This is MTQCapture's "The Binding Coil of Bahamut - Turn 5 Raid Guide" (man this brings back memories!) I want you to watch this and look at the enemy health bars (bottom center of her screen). Specifically, I want you to look for how many times you see Aero spells on it. Secondarily, I want you to watch the healer cast bars and watch what they're casting.

...given it a few minutes yet?

While SCH's damage spells - Bio, Miasma - appear frequently, notice how Aero does not? And what spells is that WHM casting? Surely Stone II right?

...well, they are casting something with stone in the NAME: Stoneskin. Quite a bit of Stoneskin, actually. Cure 1 seems to be the most frequently cast spell, followed by Stoneskin, with Cure 2 and Medica 2 being frequent, and WHM standing still regenerating MP being...also frequent.

Now, you might argue "This was a bad WHM", but this was what progression raiding looked like AT THE TIME in 2.1. Notice how little it looks like how you remember it?

Now, SCH does. Those SCH buffs have high uptime and are there clear as day. While I don't see any Ruin 1 casts, if you watch close you can see a lot of Ruin 2 going out. But you don't see that from the WHM.

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Now, in the interest of fairness, let's have a look at end end of Second Coil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_lnPoQNu7w

It still kills me the PLD casting Stoneskin on herself here.

Here, you can see Aero MORE often...but not anywhere NEAR 100% uptime. There's also a second Bio 1 on the boss a lot, but that may be coming from the BLM (which could Cross-Class ACN abilities)

Again you'll see the WHM consistently using Stoneskin and hardcasts of Cure 1 and Cure 2 frequently. I also see the SCH pretty often in Cleric Stance...but the Cleric Stance buff doesn't seem to be used much by the WHM (still watching the video all the way as I type this, but I haven't seen the WHM activate Cleric since I've been watching the party list, but you can see it from the SCH somewhat often). Also amusingly, at 3:48, you can see this amazing thing - beautiful, terrifying, or hilarious depending on your perspective: The BLM casting Physic!

No, legit go to that timestamp and see for yourself.

Even when the WHM is tanking - and yes, you read that right, "White Mage tank" is legitimately a phrase from that video/strat - the WHM is not in Cleric Stance. In fact, skimming through the video (she got video from several runs based on the party makeup changing), I can't see any point of WHM in Cleric Stance, can you? And I may have missed one somewhere, but I don't see Stone casts.

But overall, we see a similar situation:

The SCH is basically a de-facto Support fourth party role, throwing out damage while also contributing off-healing, while the WHM is a acting almost as a Pure Healer, using GCD hardcasts of heals and seemingly not casting many damage spells other than an occasional instant cast Aero and doesn't seem to be using Cleric Stance - for all the talk about how healers were this high paced dance of in and out of Cleric Stance...that seems to be ABSOLUTELY TRUE of SCH...but not true of WHM.

Now, I'm sure there are other videos out there, and we can make various arguments and analyses - here's Mr Happy's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75f6SgM6Sg - from the era. But here again we see little Aero, no heart-pounding Cleric Stance dancing, and filler GCDs were Cure 1s with Cure 2 and Medica 2 as needed, no Stonespam.

In other words: Far more like WHM as I remember it than what you guys are saying ARR WHM was like.

Being fair, what you're saying ARR healing was like WAS like that...for SCH.

...but I've spent this whole time advocating for that, so...

And AGAIN in the interest of fairness - the thought DID occur to me maybe this was true in the "wild west" days, so we should look at later raids once the raiding community was more developed and see if they had changed to what you guys remember - let's look at the FINAL turn of the FINAL Coil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmd4eRNwnE

Again - little Cleric use (even by the SCH), low uptime on Aero (higher on SCH's DoTs, again some may be from the BLM/SMN). And notice how high and crazy the damage is here, and healers were dealing with it WITHOUT the use of their current generation oGCD kits. WHMs had to use "hardcore/skill expression" HEALING buffs. It wasn't "press this oGCD to top off the party from 10% health". It was "Press this button. Now use your GCD heals intelligently on the party with boosted potency to get through this tight spot."

So again, where is this WHM you guys are remembering? I'm not seeing it from these bleeding edge ARR raiders.

I _AM_ seeing something akin to it on these bleeding edge ARR raiders' SCHOLARS, but not their White Mages.

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It is interesting seeing JUST HOW MUCH Stoneskin was used, which makes me even more upset that they removed it. I remember using it myself a lot back then, and being upset when it was removed, but I had forgotten how much it was used and how useful it was (and because it was based on the target's HP, Stoneskin was also not nerfed by Cleric Stance, much like how Benediction (100%) and Lustrate (25%) were also based on HP instead of Potency/Mind.

(I should note here, I was not a raider and didn't have a static then, either, but I did get a Twintania clear during ARR, probably around 2.4, though I only started playing in late 2.2 and didn't know anything about gearing, so I was wearing a mix of Crystal Tower pieces when I did so - truly, it was the wild west. Didn't even know about tomestone gear and normal gearing up until SB, as in HW and half of SB, I was using Dungeon gear until I joined an FC where some players did 8 man normals and blew my mind when we did the first two Omega tiers to get my unlocks [and some other new members] and weapons and stuff.)

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In short: I think this MIGHT be part of the problem.

A lot of healers now that played SCH in ARR forget WHM didn't play that way. A lot of people that came to WHM later, or even played it then but it's just been 8-9 years, have kinda forgotten that, with their memory blurring with either later expansions or with SCH. As someone who has played WHM all this time, and apparently (given the period footage in those videos) played it as per norms of the time, I am remembering it correctly. And my assessment of EW WHM as being an improvement over SB WHM likely still stands. It shifted WHM from the ARR model to the SB/ShB/EW era healing requirements while keeping their GCD healing somewhat in-tact.

It's also funny the opinion piece calls out Physic when you actually can see that SCH casting it. (And the BLMs in some cases, but let's not mention that, haha!)

And this clearly isn't asking for the game to be redesigned, since this was the ORIGINAL (2.X) design of the very same game we play. So I'm not the one asking for the game to be changed from what it always was...

The amazing irony here is:

...and neither are you guys. Well, more or less.

For SCH, you are correct.

For WHM, I am correct.

This is one of those RARE cases where everyone is correct simultaneously. Which ALSO strongly lends to my 3 change, WHM remain the same perspective, does it not?

[ty_taurus]

Snip

Did you really take a single clause from a 2013 opinion piece meant to talk about SCH and use that to go into a diatribe about WHM?

Let's get a few things straight here. You keep trying to white knight the WHM, but let's remind the classroom that you don't speak for all WHM players either. In fact there's another player that drops by the forums on occasion who will quite literally go to war with you to fight for the right for WHM to have actual complexity and how it's infuriating that WHM is always forced to hold the baby raddle.

Secondly, MTQ Capture both then and now uses prog footage for her guides. Do you know how frequently her videos feature people blatantly failing mechanics, dying, or are already KOed? In ARR, damage meant using Cleric Stance, and also WHM had far more restrictive MP problems, so conserving MP and waiting to see what mechanics were coming up were common when learning a new fight as a healer--particularly as a WHM, because the consequences of being in Cleric Stance at the wrong time or running out of MP were significantly more severe. But also, ARR was an experimental time. Every job was trying to figure out how to play correctly, and WHM players were, across that 2 year period of time, learning how to manage their DPS more effectively, and that was one of its talking points going into HW. While SCHs were thinking about ways to make it easier to heal when you have 2 SCHs together, WHMs were looking for better MP management and an easier time utilizing their DPS tools. And what did HW give WHM? All OGCD healing, Assize which restored some MP, Stone 3, and Aero 3--more damage, more ways to heal while doing damage, better MP management, and a new DoT.

I will say it until I'm blue in the face. No job in FFXIV should ever have its gameplay reduced to largely 1 button spam. It is a disgrace to the entire combat system of FFXIV. It is bad game design. That is fact based on the systems of FFXIV, not an opinion. If you're happy with 1 button spam, go play a Mario Party minigame.

[Renathras]

Did you really take a single clause from a 2013 opinion piece meant to talk about SCH and use that to go into a diatribe about WHM?

Did I take a CLAIM about the state of the game in ARR, actually look AT THE GAME IN ARR, and demonstrate how the CLAIM about the state of the game was wrong?

Yes.

Yes I did.

That seems to be not what you said though. What did you say? "diatribe about WHM"?

No, I didn't do that, because I didn't go on a diatribe. I did an analysis of the state of the game using recorded data from that era of the game to disprove the argument that you seem to prefer.

Sorry that upset you.

Let's get a few things straight here.

Oh yes...LET'S...

This is going to be "let me correct you for being wrong, isn't it?". Like, seriously, you guys keep attacking me personally, while doing your absolute BEST to ignore the arguments I'm making. That's known as an ad hominem logical fallacy. It's also a dick move. If you don't like my arguments, attack my ARGUMENTS. If you can't do that, realize you MAY be incorrect. It's okay to be incorrect.

Indeed, I even pointed out that you guys are MODERATELY CORRECT if we specify SCHOLAR ONLY. Something you guys are loathe to do because IT PROVES MY POINT THIS WHOLE TIME.

let's remind the classroom that you don't speak for all WHM players either

Sure, if we also remind the classroom that literally no one here speaks for all WHM players OR all healers more generally, either.

Good thing I'm not speaking - nor claiming I speak for - all WHM players.

I swear, if you spent half the effort addressing my actual points as you spend addressing canards, things I didn't say and didn't claim, and positions I don't hold - that is, strawmanning and gaslighting - we MIGHT actually be able to reach agreements on things!

In fact there's another player that drops by the forums on occasion

Ah, yes, one person.

I'm sure there are more.

There are also more that hold my position or even moreso - do you even know what my position is at this point? To give you a summary since you don't, it's this:

Healers are not perfect right now, but they also aren't terribly broken or horrible, and I think the best solution is to change up healers since we have four of them to where they are distinct in their DPS kits and less homogenized in their healing kits, and to where there are four levels of complexity of their kits in the same way Tanks have an easy (WAR), moderate (depends on who you ask, but DRK and GNB), and complex (PLD) options, and then we can let the players choose which they like.

WHAT ABOUT THAT STATEMENT do you find so offensive?

There are some that go farther than this and would insist that healing is pristine and nothing should ever be changed. My position is actually the moderate position here.

who will quite literally go to war with you to fight for the right for WHM to have actual complexity and how it's infuriating that WHM is always forced to hold the baby raddle.

WHM has "actual complexity" now. It's not not DPS complexity. There's no "baby raddle" here.

Secondly, MTQ Capture both then and now uses prog footage for her guides.

Yup.

But look at her prog video captures now. You WILL see WHM's casting Glare, not casting Cure 1 (ever), using GCDs, and having high Dia uptime. Well, the ones where they run WHM (her team seems to be AST + SCH/SGE depending on fight)

Also note I posted Mr Happy's video from Coils, and also note the same pattern and same gameplay. That WAS the raid scene WHEN THE CONTENT WAS LIVE.

Indeed, AS YOU GUYS HAVE POINTED OUT, AND DO ALL THE TIME, healer uptime is now much higher, NEEDED much higher to beat Enrages, and each fight has over 100 Glare/Broil/etc casts. That was CLEARLY not happening in the ARR fights, and they were clearing the fights.

I know you don't want to admit it - because it kills your false appeal to authority fallacy - but WHM did not function the way you say it did in ARR in the raid environment.

AND I EVEN GAVE YOU THE OUT by noting that SCHOLAR, in fact, DID function that way.

There's a perfect face-saving thing for you to do at this point:

"Oh, Renathras, you're right. We're thinking SCH, and as you point out, we're right about how SCH played in ARR. You're also right that WHM did not, and that healing in FFXIV accommodated both styles side by side back then and probably could today."

That's the correct, rational response to what I presented above.

The only thing it would require is you to let go of the notion you must be 100% right, anyone not agreeing with you must be 100% wrong, and unless you get 100% of what you want, the game is in a terrible and unsustainable place and that WHM is actually about what it should be.

Now, if we were arguing about SCHOLAR being kept as it is today, you'd have an argument...

...but we're NOT, since I've already said MY PREFERRED COURSE OF ACTION would be to revert SCH to its SB state, with the addition of Expedient and Faerie responsiveness that's been made better. Do you not AGREE with that position?

Do you know how frequently her videos feature people blatantly failing mechanics, dying, or are already KOed?

Yeah. As do Mr Happy's. As do current groups progging - and CLEARING - hard content. If anything, it just shows that the game was not tuned quite as tightly, was not as unforgiving, and was not as "all about damage" as it is today - which, btw, further proves my point.

In ARR, damage meant using Cleric Stance,

Which the SCHs were doing in ALL the videos I showed you but the WHMs were not. I also found this video of Turn 9 SAVAGE clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZ9LyDyfAE

Here, you will note the WHM casting more Stone 2 and Aero 2 spells and having better Aero and Aero 2 uptime. But a few things about that - this was in full ilevel 130 waiting for HW to come out by people that even self-described as being bored, but watch the WHM (and even the SCH) buffs carefully. Do you see what you DON'T see?

The WHM isn't Cleric Stance dancing. Like at all.

You also see, again, a lot of Cure 1 casts.

Even once these players had optimized and overgeared the fights, they STILL weren't playing like you insist they were. I'm not sure how better to prove to you you're wrong then by showing you actual evidence of you being wrong. If you still refuse to admit it at this point, you're being ruled by bias and desire, not reason. Moreover, I'm even pointing this out in a way that you CAN STILL BE CONSIDERED PARTIALLY RIGHT, you're just rejecting being partially right because...why? Because you can't accept a world where you're somewhat correct but not totally correct?

nd also WHM had far more restrictive MP problems, so conserving MP and waiting to see what mechanics were coming up were common when learning a new fight as a healer--

Again, watch the video immediately above this.

ilevel 130, overgering the content, waiting for HW to come out, group knew how to clear and did so while doing more of the things you insist were common. Basically a late expansion farm party and they STILL weren't Cleric Stance dancing and weren't as balls to the wall on damage spells. Indeed, if you look towards the later part of the fight, the WHM is almost exclusively casting heals and NOT maintaining DoT uptime.

You can blame this on MP economy if you want, but it still proves YOUR POSITION ON WHM IN ARR is WRONG.

HOWEVER, I will say it again, your position ON SCHOLAR is correct.

Take the partial W.

But also, ARR was an experimental time.

And YET, you guys keep trying to appeal to ARR when you THINK it proves/supports your position.

I'm pointing out to you it clearly does not.

It doesn't matter if it was an "experimental time", we're talking about how Healers actively played the game at that time.

This whole argument is kind of wonky, but it's basically you guys trying to insist to me that I've been playing the wrong game all this time because FFXIV has always been this way, when it's clear THAT IS FALSE, and the game I want is actually what FFXIV was, at least regarding WHM.

I'm even reaching out to you half-way on SCH and you're slapping my hand offered in friendship and compromise away because I won't join you in lying about what ARR was like.

And what did HW give WHM?

Not that this is relevant - we are talking about what the game was from its "foundation", ARR, but to answer your question - an oGCD used for MP management, an upgrade to its spam nuke, a field effect so SCH wouldn't feel TOO special, and a single oGCD heal that was NOT an emergency panic button exclusive like Benediction was. Other than the Stone upgrade (which is just standard for every expansion - it replaced Stone 2 in practice in your rotation), the rest was largely based on AST being added and them trying to adapt to a world where every 8 man group was no longer expected to include WHM + SCH.

Don't forget what came right after THAT: SB where WHM was given a Lily system that actively required them to cast Cure 1 and Cure 2 to activate. So be careful how heavily you hang your hat on "but the next expansion...", and that's if we ignore that ShB and EW came after and reflect the Devs' CURRENT intentions for Healers.

I will say it until I'm blue in the face. No job in FFXIV should ever have its gameplay reduced to largely 1 button spam.

And I will ask it over and over again - who is asking for a Job that has only 1 damage button and nothing else that it presses and presses nothing else?

LITERALLY NO ONE.

Even WHM's current state isn't that.

And what I'm asking for (other than its kit to remain LARGELY the same) is for the healing model to shift to where we use more GCD heals, which is the exact OPPOSITE of asking for "largely 1 button spam"!

If you're happy with 1 button spam, go play a Mario Party minigame.

THIS is the only "go play ultimate" going on in this thread, btw.

And it's worse than "go play ultimate".

At least "go play ultimate" says you have a place in this game and this community.

This "quit FFXIV" is far more toxic.

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Again, in summary, if you read nothing else of the above, my position you are ACTUALLY ARGUING AGAINST is this:

Healers are not perfect right now, but they also aren't terribly broken or horrible, and I think the best solution is to change up healers since we have four of them to where they are distinct in their DPS kits and less homogenized in their healing kits, and to where there are four levels of complexity of their kits in the same way Tanks have an easy (WAR), moderate (depends on who you ask, but DRK and GNB), and complex (PLD) options, and then we can let the players choose which they like.

WHAT ABOUT THAT STATEMENT do you find so offensive?

As I've said numerous times (and as you lot have IGNORED numerous times) my ideal course of action would ultimately be for SCH to be returned to its SB kit - AT THE VERY LEAST CAN YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THAT? - SGE should have a DPS kit more akin to RDM's Caster kit, or the Water/Earth kit that was presented here a few posts ago and deal damage leveraging Kardia instead of Aetherflow 2.0, AST should...actually I honestly have no idea what AST should do other than the Cards need some kind of major overhaul and, imo, should be the key part of its gameplay and rotation, not a side game, and finally, that WHM should shift to a more GCD healing model flexing the Lily system to allow it to deal damage with a simple damage rotation (basically what it has today) but where it's actually getting more varied GCDs in by casting things other than endless Glare as its filler.

I honestly LOVE the Lily system because it ENCOURAGES GCD USE ON HEALING and allows the Job to still perform just fine in the damage department. Instead of 4x Glare, you have 3x Solace/Rapture + Misery, which I find VASTLY more enjoyable. The thing I'd really like to see is for more varied Lily abilities and for Lilies to be generated at a rate that they comprise more healing and you can use Misery more often. I'd love it if, for example, Regen (or hell, all WHM heal spells) generated a stack of Blood Lily so that every three casts you could use Misery. It would make spells like Regen and Medica 2 not DPS losses that way, and I'd love that. Refund that healing with damage and give me a reason to cast all those GCD heals instead of do 100% of healing with oGCDs and fill in the gap with Glare for 100% of GCDs that aren't Dia refreshes.

...in other words, yet again, I'm arguing for THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you think I'm arguing for.

SB SCH + benefits,
SGE that actually plays like a WoW Disc Priest or RIFT Cloromancer,
AST that actually uses Cards meaningfully,
WHM that is more like an ARR WHM but modernized with the Lily system.

THAT is my actual position.

THAT is what YOU are arguing against.