How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

That is true, but a lot of Final Fantasy history is single player RPGs where you, as the player, are (1) controlling an entire party, in a combat system that features (2) plenty of randomized outgoing damage and (3) plenty of status effects and elemental affinities.

I agree well enough with that. That's why I look at FFXI as the "This is what WHM adapted to an MMO should probably be". If you do a deep dive - I've never played FFXI other than a free trial, but we can look over the webpages like the one I linked above - you can see that it's a similar story to FFXIV's WHM in terms of damage tools. Basically Glare, Dia, Holy with both single target and AOE versions of the spells.

Granted, FFXI is a pretty different game, but as you look through the spell list, note there's no Water, Earth, or Aero spells in the White Mage toolkit. Like...at all. Instead, WHM has access to the Bar- line of spells (which are basically Protect/Shell for specific elements), single target (Cure line) and AOE (Curaga line) heals, and a far more complicated debuff cleanse system than Esuna, as well as having utility spells like Teleport, stat buffs for main stats like Vit and such, and even Sneak. That's what I think a WHM in an MMO has that's fitting to it.

Honestly, I personally feel like the Class -> Job system is just going to go at some point, because there's a lot of wonkiness in it. It's probably only still in the game because changing it would be trouble on the coding side, even though every Job introduced from HW on didn't engage with the system, especially once Cross-Class was removed. WHM coming off of CNJ was a disjointed mistake that causes a lot of confusion with some players liking the Druid-like nature of CNJ and being upset when they put on the White and gradually progress into being what a traditional White Mage is instead. Most game lore doesn't go Druid -> Holy Priest, so people that like the Druid are upset that the end up with Holy Priest.

I am a bit curious, though. Why is WHM your preferred healer? Aesthetics?

I don't ask to pry, just curious. You note it feels too simple to you, but all three of the other healers (even SGE) is more complex in their own ways. So I can't think of any reason other than Aesthetics OR that WHM is easy/straightforward that someone would prefer it, but if said person thinks it is too simple (near synonym for too easy?), then I can't quite square that circle.

How would you make a more simplified BLM rotation for a healer? Isn't that arguably what RDM is? Their Mana system makes their caster rotation arguably a simplified BLM rotation. And, as I noted above, WHM has a (slightly higher, but still) similar APM to BLM. In effect, WHM right now is arguably the Healer version of what BLM is to DPS - and what WAR is to Tanks.

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The just play ultimate argument is kinda the most toxic and gaslighting one in this discussion

And literally WHO is asking for it?

And come now, it's hardly "the most toxic" OR the most "gaslighting" thing in THIS discussion. You can't say a thing is happening (and the most toxic thing) in a discussion when it isn't even IN this discussion. It wasn't even mentioned in this discussion, I don't believe, until Flowerfairy said it.

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To follow-up ...
"I can't speak for White Mages, but I can say that healing at endgame as a Scholar is a blast. With DoTs, off-global cooldown abilities, dodging, and pet management to deal with I am rarely ever bored. I am literally always doing something in dungeons, and that feels amazing.

I think this is what's lost (from you guys' side) in this discussion. Note the first 6 words there. I put them in italics.

Contrast that by looking at the part you bolded. Other than DoTs and dodging, those were things SCH had that WHM did not. WHM had 3 oGCDs, Presence of Mind (which was used for healing not damage), Divine Seal (which was used for healing not damage), and Benediction (which was used for emergencies at that point in the game's history, not as a routine use tool). WHM had no pet management, and no DoT interaction, nor as many DoTs as SCH had since it could Cross-Class WHM's Aero, had Shadow Flare's field effect, and for a BIT anyway, could Cross-Class BLM's Thunder (though that was removed fairly early on)

WHM didn't play that way, SCH did. A LOT OF PEOPLE happened to like that. A LOT OF PEOPLE also happened not to, and played WHM. Keep in mind at the time WHM was primarily a GCD healer that healed through use of Medica 2, Medica 1, Cure 2 AND Cure 1 (because MP was an issue back then), and occasionally dipped into Cleric to apply DoTs if the fight was braindead snore easy, which no hard content was.

But how about we actually look at ARR history?

I think it might be instructive for us all to look back to the time we're talking about here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fsPp9IQXuc

This is MTQCapture's "The Binding Coil of Bahamut - Turn 5 Raid Guide" (man this brings back memories!) I want you to watch this and look at the enemy health bars (bottom center of her screen). Specifically, I want you to look for how many times you see Aero spells on it. Secondarily, I want you to watch the healer cast bars and watch what they're casting.

...given it a few minutes yet?

While SCH's damage spells - Bio, Miasma - appear frequently, notice how Aero does not? And what spells is that WHM casting? Surely Stone II right?

...well, they are casting something with stone in the NAME: Stoneskin. Quite a bit of Stoneskin, actually. Cure 1 seems to be the most frequently cast spell, followed by Stoneskin, with Cure 2 and Medica 2 being frequent, and WHM standing still regenerating MP being...also frequent.

Now, you might argue "This was a bad WHM", but this was what progression raiding looked like AT THE TIME in 2.1. Notice how little it looks like how you remember it?

Now, SCH does. Those SCH buffs have high uptime and are there clear as day. While I don't see any Ruin 1 casts, if you watch close you can see a lot of Ruin 2 going out. But you don't see that from the WHM.

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Now, in the interest of fairness, let's have a look at end end of Second Coil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_lnPoQNu7w

It still kills me the PLD casting Stoneskin on herself here.

Here, you can see Aero MORE often...but not anywhere NEAR 100% uptime. There's also a second Bio 1 on the boss a lot, but that may be coming from the BLM (which could Cross-Class ACN abilities)

Again you'll see the WHM consistently using Stoneskin and hardcasts of Cure 1 and Cure 2 frequently. I also see the SCH pretty often in Cleric Stance...but the Cleric Stance buff doesn't seem to be used much by the WHM (still watching the video all the way as I type this, but I haven't seen the WHM activate Cleric since I've been watching the party list, but you can see it from the SCH somewhat often). Also amusingly, at 3:48, you can see this amazing thing - beautiful, terrifying, or hilarious depending on your perspective: The BLM casting Physic!

No, legit go to that timestamp and see for yourself.

Even when the WHM is tanking - and yes, you read that right, "White Mage tank" is legitimately a phrase from that video/strat - the WHM is not in Cleric Stance. In fact, skimming through the video (she got video from several runs based on the party makeup changing), I can't see any point of WHM in Cleric Stance, can you? And I may have missed one somewhere, but I don't see Stone casts.

But overall, we see a similar situation:

The SCH is basically a de-facto Support fourth party role, throwing out damage while also contributing off-healing, while the WHM is a acting almost as a Pure Healer, using GCD hardcasts of heals and seemingly not casting many damage spells other than an occasional instant cast Aero and doesn't seem to be using Cleric Stance - for all the talk about how healers were this high paced dance of in and out of Cleric Stance...that seems to be ABSOLUTELY TRUE of SCH...but not true of WHM.

Now, I'm sure there are other videos out there, and we can make various arguments and analyses - here's Mr Happy's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75f6SgM6Sg - from the era. But here again we see little Aero, no heart-pounding Cleric Stance dancing, and filler GCDs were Cure 1s with Cure 2 and Medica 2 as needed, no Stonespam.

In other words: Far more like WHM as I remember it than what you guys are saying ARR WHM was like.

Being fair, what you're saying ARR healing was like WAS like that...for SCH.

...but I've spent this whole time advocating for that, so...

And AGAIN in the interest of fairness - the thought DID occur to me maybe this was true in the "wild west" days, so we should look at later raids once the raiding community was more developed and see if they had changed to what you guys remember - let's look at the FINAL turn of the FINAL Coil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmd4eRNwnE

Again - little Cleric use (even by the SCH), low uptime on Aero (higher on SCH's DoTs, again some may be from the BLM/SMN). And notice how high and crazy the damage is here, and healers were dealing with it WITHOUT the use of their current generation oGCD kits. WHMs had to use "hardcore/skill expression" HEALING buffs. It wasn't "press this oGCD to top off the party from 10% health". It was "Press this button. Now use your GCD heals intelligently on the party with boosted potency to get through this tight spot."

So again, where is this WHM you guys are remembering? I'm not seeing it from these bleeding edge ARR raiders.

I _AM_ seeing something akin to it on these bleeding edge ARR raiders' SCHOLARS, but not their White Mages.

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It is interesting seeing JUST HOW MUCH Stoneskin was used, which makes me even more upset that they removed it. I remember using it myself a lot back then, and being upset when it was removed, but I had forgotten how much it was used and how useful it was (and because it was based on the target's HP, Stoneskin was also not nerfed by Cleric Stance, much like how Benediction (100%) and Lustrate (25%) were also based on HP instead of Potency/Mind.

(I should note here, I was not a raider and didn't have a static then, either, but I did get a Twintania clear during ARR, probably around 2.4, though I only started playing in late 2.2 and didn't know anything about gearing, so I was wearing a mix of Crystal Tower pieces when I did so - truly, it was the wild west. Didn't even know about tomestone gear and normal gearing up until SB, as in HW and half of SB, I was using Dungeon gear until I joined an FC where some players did 8 man normals and blew my mind when we did the first two Omega tiers to get my unlocks [and some other new members] and weapons and stuff.)

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In short: I think this MIGHT be part of the problem.

A lot of healers now that played SCH in ARR forget WHM didn't play that way. A lot of people that came to WHM later, or even played it then but it's just been 8-9 years, have kinda forgotten that, with their memory blurring with either later expansions or with SCH. As someone who has played WHM all this time, and apparently (given the period footage in those videos) played it as per norms of the time, I am remembering it correctly. And my assessment of EW WHM as being an improvement over SB WHM likely still stands. It shifted WHM from the ARR model to the SB/ShB/EW era healing requirements while keeping their GCD healing somewhat in-tact.

It's also funny the opinion piece calls out Physic when you actually can see that SCH casting it. (And the BLMs in some cases, but let's not mention that, haha!)

And this clearly isn't asking for the game to be redesigned, since this was the ORIGINAL (2.X) design of the very same game we play. So I'm not the one asking for the game to be changed from what it always was...

The amazing irony here is:

...and neither are you guys. Well, more or less.

For SCH, you are correct.

For WHM, I am correct.

This is one of those RARE cases where everyone is correct simultaneously. Which ALSO strongly lends to my 3 change, WHM remain the same perspective, does it not?