What Zero Could've Been

[Brinne]

Pandaemonium got me back in "excited" mode so I'm just hoping they don't mess it up.

Pandaemonium was sort of shockingly good and intriguing! I'm probably still not at the point where I'd be exactly "excited" to meet back up with the Scions again - I really did feel "oh god, I need a long break at least" by the end of EW - but one expansion where I felt basically everyone's characterization suffered isn't enough to snuff out the goodwill I have for them as characters over the course of the entire game. It'll be good to see G'raha again when we return to the Twelve raids, and Zero could really go anywhere at this point. She's not an archetype that instantly appeals to me, but that's fine. Characters are more than their aesthetics and archetypes, and she's just getting started.

As much as this game has disappointed me at times, it's also managed to sort of shock me before with how well it's spun story elements around I'd sort of written off as hopeless in terms of making interesting/emotionally compelling--the Ascians pre-ShB, for instance, both as a group and as individuals, and even the Warriors of Darkness and the First itself--so I can't discount the possibility they can do it again, even if EW was a pretty bad blow for me, narratively, in a lot of ways. I'm looking forward to seeing where various threads come together and where they go from here.

[Striker44]

I don't know if I'd say that. It looks to me like there's been plenty of back and forth. Granted, there are a couple outliers in this thread for certain. At any rate, it's tiresome. If no one is allowed to speak on the forums without getting torn to shreds over their position, why even bother?

Don't like the Scions? Instant ad hominem.
Don't like Venat? Same thing.
Don't like Zodiark? Same thing.
Don't like the Ancients? Yep, that too.
Emet-Selch? Not liking him is like signing a waiver saying you'd like to be the online equivalent of a punching bag.

A small group of posters are really bad about turning everything into a personal attack. The majority just try to work around it as best they can, lest they get dragged in as well. Then to add to this you've got another small group of posters that choose to communicate in bad faith, knowingly making disingenuous statement after disingenuous statement for no reason other than... well, I don't actually know the reason, but I'm sure there is one. The same posters with a tendency to choose disingenuous language also tend to look for problems where none exist. Doesn't help anyone.

The issue is that, on these forums at least, it most definitely goes both ways, and particularly the "other" way. Look at how certain posters jump all over anyone who posts about liking the Scions, or Venat, or the EW story arc, etc.. Heck, we have people complaining that in the midst of the usual half-dozen or so "I hate x" threads, someone creates one single thread saying they enjoy that thing and find it a positive. And almost immediately a certain crew goes into any thread like that and either directly or passive-aggressively tries to shoot it down or derail it. We have a group that's not only dedicated to spending their forum life hating on the game, but also trying to drag down anyone who dares to enjoy it. That's just sad.

[SannaR]

What happened? Was it seriously Endwalker's release? I've been only lurking for a year or two, but it seems things changed recently. Before the worst issue here were the constant spam of obvious troll thread, now it seems this place is slowly imploding.

It's like Abismiiliard said it was like this before just toned down and allowed to die or have a breather from. Compared to now where as I've said various times you just hint at the sundering or about how you feel about those who disagree with you on the subject and you can bet the golden scree mount that any and all discussion about any other topic will then slide into round 576 of holy heck Venat is such a B n C (thankfully no one's called her a C word yet.) for sundering the world and anyone who isn't as bothered by it as I am should feel bad and whatnot. Yes I'm exaggerating somewhat. While name calling the other side by some on both sides.

[Absimiliard]

The issue is that, on these forums at least, it most definitely goes both ways, and particularly the "other" way. Look at how certain posters jump all over anyone who posts about liking the Scions, or Venat, or the EW story arc, etc.. Heck, we have people complaining that in the midst of the usual half-dozen or so "I hate x" threads, someone creates one single thread saying they enjoy that thing and find it a positive. And almost immediately a certain crew goes into any thread like that and either directly or passive-aggressively tries to shoot it down or derail it. We have a group that's not only dedicated to spending their forum life hating on the game, but also trying to drag down anyone who dares to enjoy it. That's just sad.

That shoe quickly goes on the other foot if someone mentions liking the Ancients, Garleans, etc. Ditto for speaking positively about certain primals. What I can't figure out is why speaking positively about Ramuh is considered some grave offense. Wasn't he like... the fairest, most kind out of all of the original primals? Dude had granddad energy, but God forbid you say something nice about him on the forums.

So yeah, that's the rub. Saying things go the "other" way when they are in fact pretty much equal on all fronts is only inviting more trouble.

[PawPaw]

Pandaemonium was sort of shockingly good and intriguing! I'm probably still not at the point where I'd be exactly "excited" to meet back up with the Scions again - I really did feel "oh god, I need a long break at least" by the end of EW - but one expansion where I felt basically everyone's characterization suffered isn't enough to snuff out the goodwill I have for them as characters over the course of the entire game. It'll be good to see G'raha again when we return to the Twelve raids, and Zero could really go anywhere at this point. She's not an archetype that instantly appeals to me, but that's fine. Characters are more than their aesthetics and archetypes, and she's just getting started.

As much as this game has disappointed me at times, it's also managed to sort of shock me before with how well it's spun story elements around I'd sort of written off as hopeless in terms of making interesting/emotionally compelling--the Ascians pre-ShB, for instance, both as a group and as individuals, and even the Warriors of Darkness and the First itself--so I can't discount the possibility they can do it again, even if EW was a pretty bad blow for me, narratively, in a lot of ways. I'm looking forward to seeing where various threads come together and where they go from here.

Ha! I should clarify that I'm less excited about meeting up with the Scions than I am about just getting back in there and seeing the resolution to the story of Themis and co. They did make me group up with the one Scion I really can't stand, after all, so I'm in no hurry. Sorry, not sorry, Y'shtola.

The new MSQ so far hasn't really grabbed me and Zero isn't the type of character that I'd normally find intriguing, but I'm game to see if her character will become something interesting. She really has just appeared and who knows what they'll do with her going forward.

[Brinne]

Ha! I should clarify that I'm less excited about meeting up with the Scions than I am about just getting back in there and seeing the resolution to the story of Themis and co. They did make me group up with the one Scion I really can't stand, after all, so I'm in no hurry. Sorry, not sorry, Y'shtola.

The new MSQ so far hasn't really grabbed me and Zero isn't the type of character that I'd normally find intriguing, but I'm game to see if her character will become something interesting. She really has just appeared and who knows what they'll do with her going forward.

As far as the Scions go, Y'shtola is indeed the worst and continues to be the worst. The best, at least in EW? Urianger and G'raha got some really good individual scenes, at least, and I think Estinien was mostly fun, if mostly a really, really transparent late fanservice addition. In terms of how much I liked them overall versus how they were used in EW, the twins probably wound up the most unfortunate, sadly.

[Lunaxia]

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

[Absimiliard]

I could certainly do without the Scions for a while. Whether you love them or hate them, oversaturation is a thing. We've been dealing extensively with them for quite some time now. Why not roll out some solo adventures for the Warrior of Light? Perhaps they could explore what it means to be Azem and begin wandering the world alone, helping whenever warranted. We already know the game is set up such that the WoL will generally do whatever is asked of them. This could add some proper meaning to their seemingly overly obliging nature.

No world-ending threats, no higher callings, and definitely no Eorzean Alliance constantly hounding the WoL to come help because they got a little bloody nose from the latest primal mess they undoubtedly brought on themselves. Just one stronk individual wandering, helping, and generally exploring the world at large. Maybe even start throwing in some choices that actually matter along the way.

[Boblawblah]

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

I loved the uncertainty of Heavensward, and slowly getting to know the Fortemps, and them becoming like family to the WoL. They've never quite hit the same feeling since then for me, although I love a lot of the story afterwards. fighting for Ishgard in the competition was such a great moment for me, I really felt like I had a home that wasn't just "go here weapon of light and kill".

[Brinne]

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

Yeah, I feel you on that. Honestly, I generally enjoyed the 6.2 MSQ (Y'shtola aside), but one of the letdowns was definitely that, while I don't mind Zero - I don't have a strong opinion of her yet, beyond "we'll see where they go with her" and "I'm happy for the people who like her archetype" - I was super looking forward to Vrtra/Varshahn as a major "new face" in the party and then it felt like he barely got any focus, even though he was our entire reason for being there. You could just wholesale delete Y'shtola from the 6.2 MSQ and I think it'd only improve it, honestly...