RDM Balance Whack idea

[Rithy255]

Main issue is, and the reason a passive raise tax is a thing, is if RDM and BLM do comparable damage but RDM brings a safety net, there is no incentive to bring BLM. On the opposite end, you have no reason to bring Red Mage if its damage is so low that after learning the fight the guy you have playing it needs to swap to BLM and partially relearn the fight anyway.

The issue of giving DPS non-damage "support" comes multiple times. 1: this game is so focused on dps that even healers and tanks are hard focused on it. 2: if dps is balanced against support instead of other support options (ie: if RDM brought raise 1/min but BLM brought reraise 1/90sec) and that was the balance or choice? Sure that's a variety thats ok. But "9000 dps but no raise vs 8000 dps but raise" is a recipe for fracturing an entire role's balance.

I'll just have to disagree with you then, I believe it's fine for DPS to have support options outside of "damage"

While yes on paper the Optimal play once the fight is done, they should switch to black mage, for a slightly quicker reclear.
Funny that in reality that the DPS check doesn't warrant a swap (Unless we're talking about p8s pre nerf but that's overtuned and rdm and other jobs are doing too little) no one is bothered if you switch to BLM or keep red mage and if a static seriously forces you to switch of RDM just because it's slightly worse maybe it's a problem with the static? not the game design.

Even in recleans it's arguably that raise can be useful but obviously it's a lot less useful, but at that point you've likely got better gear theirs not going to be a DPS check struggle? I just don't think the argument that people will force people off red mage, if your job isn't making the raid struggle to clear whats even the issue with bringing a red mage? you've cleared with it before and now the group likely has better gear? where's the struggle

Raise tax should exist but be reduced, but overall all casters don't need a ranged tax, PHYS ranged doesn't need a harsh ranged tax, I wanna keep the unique support aspects about red mage, support is fine and should exist, I get you want to play red mage for the spell blade aspect, I love sword casters but I don't think most people (yes casual players, some hardcore players) wouldn't be happy with any sort of removal.

[SaberMaxwell]

It's almost as if I said "if support is balanced against support it's okay" and gave an explicit example of some support v support balance that would be fine on DPS, and then gave an alternate example of support v damage that I think isn't. You can waffle at me about "It's a static issue, not a game issue" but there were enough PLD and WAR booted from groups for lack of damage that they needed an explicit buff this patch. I get the fantasy you're looking for, but the way you and the dev team are going about it doesn't create the choice you're thinking it does; it creates a "right" and "wrong" choice.

I think raise tax is dumb as well, but it is something that needs to be considered when placing SMN and RDM anywhere near BLM. The active tax should be emphasized more, but it still comes down to "These classes have the button if needed, this one doesn't." That's why I firmly believe that either all casters need a raise utility of some variety, or it should be removed from the role entirely; they all fight for the same spot, and pitting damage against utility is always a losing battle because either we're where we are now where damage outweighs utility so bad you just abandon your RDM, or damage doesn't in which case why bring a BLM?

This whole conversation, of course, assumes high level play defined as early savage clears and to a lesser degree Ultimate. If anything else is brought up, it's a bit of a non-starter of a conversation that ends with "Why buff or nerf anything at all, ever?"

When you start talking about ranged tax you start preaching to the choir, especially with this tier and boss hitbox size.

[AlaineIV]

Balancing RDM should resolve around mobility. It's mobility is in set phases < as well as manafication not lining up with embolden/2 minute burst window of other classes.While BLM and SMN have free movement. The cost of raising is 2400 MP which is detrimental to a RDM.

[Rithy255]

It's almost as if I said "if support is balanced against support it's okay" and gave an explicit example of some support v support balance that would be fine on DPS, and then gave an alternate example of support v damage that I think isn't. You can waffle at me about "It's a static issue, not a game issue" but there were enough PLD and WAR booted from groups for lack of damage that they needed an explicit buff this patch. I get the fantasy you're looking for, but the way you and the dev team are going about it doesn't create the choice you're thinking it does; it creates a "right" and "wrong" choice.

(Sorry for the cut, not enough size, not trying to take you outta context just read above)
All casters getting a raise would be a "solution" then people will complain if casters do less then melees because of the raise tax.
In early savage tiers generally casters like RDM/SMN are picked over BLM to help learn the fight, but all are generally viable, This tier was different because of how tight the enrage was, I'm pretty sure even then summoner was used, once you've cleared once, you will get better gear, I doubt any groups will care enough if you go BLM or RDM because the check is going to not be a problem, Your point with BLM makes sense, it would become a really annoying balancing act of making sure RDM does enough damage to make dps checks not stupid, but also make it so BLM damage is worth bringing.

I understand your point, I think Paladin was even less used then warrior because it's defensives sucked so much (blocks not working with Dots, HG being so high of a invul, lacking defensives for useless stuff like "cover" and one extra raid wide), so it's obvious utility does have a point to a degree, DPS is generally always more important when checks are very high. Warrior was very popular last tier because of 1. Ease of use and 2. high self healing very strong defensively, despite jobs like gunbreaker and dark knight performing better, which again shows people generally like utility in jobs and "defence" (Tanks are different but even then DPS is going to be preferd).

Maybe we could just give all casters raise? (Just BLM but future caster in 7.0 hopefully?) I don't really think it's the best solution but it's better then raise being removed.

[SaberMaxwell]

(Sorry for the cut, not enough size, not trying to take you outta context just read above)

If you edit post, you can bypass the character limit

All casters getting a raise would be a "solution" then people will complain if casters do less then melees because of the raise tax.

The only reason this wouldn't necessarily happen is because casters are not fighting for the same slot as melee dps are. Because of the role bonus, you need 1 melee, 1 caster, and 1 physical ranged; fourth slot is a flex spot but since time immemorial most groups just go double melee. This means that Red Mage, Summoner, and Black Mage fight for the same slot in the party, and the balance of the melee dps has no bearing on these three. It could be argued that BLM should be competing for the flex spot, but that's also a function of the enormous gap between melee and everyone else. While the damage gap between melee and all ranged needs to be dropped, the raise tax wouldn't be the source of that conversation.

In early savage tiers generally casters like RDM/SMN are picked over BLM to help learn the fight, but all are generally viable, This tier was different because of how tight the enrage was,

The issue is that the tight enrage wouldn't be an issue if there wasn't such a huge gap between meta DPS/tanks and non-meta DPS/tanks. If anything it's a good thing to have a tight check, especially on week 1, and it's a shame they opted to neuter the check rather than check job balance.

The highlighted is what I see as a problem though, and it goes back to support versus damage and how that affects caster mains. Black Mage mains who want to main BLM and nothing else are forced into RDM/SMN to learn the fight, and RDM/SMN who aren't interested in BLM end up forced to it for anything past reclears. Again we can go through the rigmarole of "that's a static problem not a game problem" but why are casters forced to multi-main when few other roles have to? A monk can be a monk whether it's prog, farm, parse, or speed.

I'm pretty sure even then summoner was used, once you've cleared once, you will get better gear, I doubt any groups will care enough if you go BLM or RDM because the check is going to not be a problem,

That's not really the issue at hand here. Besides which, if PF is enough to go by, enough people DID care enough about damage to reject PLD and WAR to the point they needed to be buffed. RDM is the least cleared through 8s doorboss this tier, though SMN has more clears than RDM and BLM combined as usual

Your point with BLM makes sense, it would become a really annoying balancing act of making sure RDM does enough damage to make dps checks not stupid, but also make it so BLM damage is worth bringing.

Likewise, I get why you want a choice to mean you bring something different. I think it would be neat for the casters to each bring a unique mitigative/recovery tool; 1/min, give BLM "Shared Cast" which gives the target a swiftcast on their next cast and 2400 MP. It'd not only be a good recovery tool, but also a toptier optimization tool even when people aren't dying.

Give SMN "From Ash" (some phoenix based raise) that can be used 1/min to pick people up off the ground free of charge and off the global cooldown.

Leave Verraise as is and bam, all three casters now have unique utilities revolving around recovery that can then be balanced around each other. Even if my ideas themselves are bad or if everyone having a raise instead of some other recovery utility is not desired, the core concept of balancing support against support should be met to prevent this weird, wacky world of BLM needing to be leagues ahead of RDM/SMN.

Sadly, my sixth sense is telling me they're gonna take path of least resistance and release the fourth caster so they can split the role down in half between "raise casters" and "damage casters."