Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Zero-ELEC]

I see someone was having fun with the tags. Let's not do that.

Also, cripes, love to see another thread devolve into the same argument, again.

[Absimiliard]

At this point I've just accepted it. They're going to keep turning the threads into this regardless of whether anyone else wishes it.

[Lyth]

...

A billion is usually slightly less than 'countless millions', assuming than you can count to more than 1000. The distinction between the Ascians and the post-Azem Convocation is mostly arbitrary, especially because their core leadership were unsundered. It doesn't really sound like Amaurot engaged with the other nations of the Ancient world as equals. They just hosted academic debates on how best to play god while observing the suffering of others from on high. Their entire philosophy and world view was warped from the outset. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Absimiliard]

Academic debate was like 90% of the policy making process for the Ancients. Allowing those from outside the ruling body to have any kind of input is a stark contrast to ... well, literally any modern government, both real or in the game. Regardless, the ruling parties rarely ever actually enforced anything unless it was absolutely necessary. It wasn't their way.

There is no evidence of unfairness anywhere in the game with regards to Amaurotine interactions with Ancients from other corners of the world. What we do know is those "other nations" would willingly defer to Amaurot in matters necessitating interaction but were otherwise left to handle their own affairs, even during the Final Days.

[KageTokage]

Also, cripes, love to see another thread devolve into the same argument, again.

Seemed like an inevitability given the relative lack of new information coupled with Hermes' morality being centered on the value of different lives.

I only really find myself wondering how how he would've reacted if he had learned the truth about the Meteia after he had resigned himself to conformity.

[Cleretic]

Seemed like an inevitability given the relative lack of new information coupled with Hermes' morality being centered on the value of different lives.

Yeah, this one I almost give a pass because the story is actually outright about the Ancients and the End of Days. I still don't want to deal with this argument ever again and desperately wish the writers would stop going back to the well, but it's rather different from derailing a conversation about, say, the voidsent into 'but do we really, truly know Venat wasn't an inherently malicious murderer?'

I see someone was having fun with the tags. Let's not do that.

Also, cripes, love to see another thread devolve into the same argument, again.

Also, VERY thankful someone could actually fix that, thankyou. That was a REALLY rancid show of exactly where people were with the masks off and no accountability on who was saying what.

(I was the one that added just 'tags were a bad feature'.)

[KariTheFox]

You are grossly underestimating the ease with which food can be acquired. Not every lifeform in FFXIV is fantastically dangerous. In fact, the vast majority of them are perfectly harmless and often quite defenseless. The plethora of life we routinely fight in-game is only a portion of what's actually there.

In this scenario, these sundered humans - wretches incapable of communication of any kind, would be the perfectly harmless and quite defenseless lifeform to a lot of the dangerous wildlife out there.

Really, "incapable of communication" seems very to hard to believe, since even animals can communicate with other other. Incapable of spoken language? Sure. But some forms of community and even culture might be possible without language as we understand it.

I actually agree that Emet-Selch largely doesn't believe what he says about the sundered being lesser life forms, and that most of his ideas are a form of rationalization to help justify the atrocities he feels he has to commit. I just think that process of rationalization started early on, when he felt incapable of communicating with what were mostly likely proto hunter-gatherer societies.

[Thenightvortex]

Yeah, this one I almost give a pass because the story is actually outright about the Ancients and the End of Days. I still don't want to deal with this argument ever again and desperately wish the writers would stop going back to the well, but it's rather different from derailing a conversation about, say, the voidsent into 'but do we really, truly know Venat wasn't an inherently malicious murderer?'



Also, VERY thankful someone could actually fix that, thankyou. That was a REALLY rancid show of exactly where people were with the masks off and no accountability on who was saying what.

(I was the one that added just 'tags were a bad feature'.)

If you’re gonna accuse us of escaping accountability, than I proudly confess that “mankind’s first edgelord” and “tears for the hedgehogs” were my tags. And what masks going off are we talking about? That we admit to finding Hermes an unsympathetic arrogant school-shooter like edgelord? Again, nobody’s concealing that.

[Tehmon]

Virtually every shred of information we have regarding Ancient civilization seems to strongly indicate their methods and moral statutes differed greatly from what we saw from the Ascians. It seems fairly evident their own people would consider what they're doing to bring them back abhorrent if somehow made aware of it. Indeed, Emet-Selch's past self was absolutely revulsed by what he learned of his future. There is no indication anywhere in or out of game in any official materials the Ancients were anything more than our interactions with them (Note: them being the Ancients, not the later Ascians) made them out to be. They were just... people. Some good, some bad, but on the whole they definitely come off as upstanding.

There is no doubt that Emet felt repulsed by what was to come, but in the discussion of how ascians treat beings they deem lower to themselves, Emet doesn't really at any point clearly state how badly he feels about what he will do, does or did to the sundered. Not even in his death does he seem apologetic. He talks about his burden, but beyond that, I do not believe personally that the pipeline from ancients (especially the Convocation) to ascian would be as drastic as you make it seem.

[Teraq]

If you’re gonna accuse us of escaping accountability, than I proudly confess that “mankind’s first edgelord” and “tears for the hedgehogs” were my tags. And what masks going off are we talking about? That we admit to finding Hermes an unsympathetic arrogant school-shooter like edgelord? Again, nobody’s concealing that.

Nice. I, for one, just rewrote my earlier posts into tags, because the comparison to the Joker will never not be on point. Hermes, just as much of a first step for mankind as The Joker is the first step for Gotham City, god bless.

The comparison actually does fail at one point, though: at least Alan Moore had the decency to end The Killing Joke on "it isn't society, it's just you, Joker".

Lyth, this is a bonkers thing to say, and you know it. This is not a diagetic conversation. People unsure if the sacrifices were sapient or not aren't unsure because they're indulging in in-universe moral relativity about issue in line with the Ascians, they're unsure because Natsuko Ishikawa, the real-world human being, literally hasn't written it down.

I admire your patience. I truly do.

For the sake of my own sanity I simply cannot bring myself to play the Bad Faith Bingo with the Ancients Bad crowd that haunts what has become of the Lore forum. Arguments are repeatedly made and ignored. What little canon we have to go on is continuously twisted into this weird echo chamber of headcanons that seemingly operate on a single basis: Villains BadTm and can never be relatable, right or have a point, or simply be just human beings... because that would be actually interesting.

(inb4 someone accuses me of being an alt because I never posted before Endwalker but talk about the Lore forum)