Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Lurina]

In the Ancient society, I suppose I'd be a familiar. Which kind of turns how good existance is into a dice roll, maybe I'd be a familiar for someone who values me as an equal and research partner, which would be the best possible outcome. Or maybe I'd be a familiar for one of those ancients who thinks it would be fine if a creature in Elpis killed me, which would suck.

I'm not sure the Ancients really had a 'class' of genuinely sapient familiars. Having done all the quests in Elpis, many of the researchers seem shocked that you're capable of understanding complex ideas and especially that you have a soul. One of them even gets kind of uncomfortable about the implications.

The vibe I got was that cases like Meteion are still very fringe, and people didn't really know what to do with them. There was probably a cultural conversation to be hard there.

...also, yeah, it seems like FFXIV is kinda strange about how it treats sapient beings generally if you squint... Like, the Mammets in Island Sanctuary are for sure sentient. But it seems like they're basically slaves? Except we pay them? But then the Ancients also canonically pay us during Elpis, which comes up repeatedly? (What do the Ancients use money for? How does that even work?)

And then you have quests that establish random creatures like the Yeti are sapient... Even though there are multiple quests where we basically murder them to make fur coats...

I feel like we're not supposed to think too hard about this stuff.

[Brinne]

And then you have quests that establish random creatures like the Yeti are sapient... Even though there are multiple quests where we basically murder them to make fur coats...

I feel like we're not supposed to think too hard about this stuff.

The huge presence of quests like this - there are also quests that establish trolls as sapient! - quests where you help bring forth creatures specifically to kill them for ritualistic purposes! - makes it all the more sort of mind-boggling and ill-thought-out, at best, that the writers chose to go the direction of "they cull creations and wildlife sometimes in a callous way" as some kind of stern moral check upon the Ancients. I realize this is my complexes and my fixations, in large part, but now every time I do one of those quests that involve "surprise, Yetis are sapient!" or "this Sharlayan researcher wants you to go massacre a bunch of creatures to make some cool cologne!", I partially get thrown out of the game. There is always that nagging voice in the back of my head jeering "ha ha, guess we also don't respect life and deserve to have our entire civilization destroyed - oh well, bicolored gemstones go." It's an unfortunate aspect of the broader damage Endwalker's approach did for me to the game's worldbuilding fabric as a whole.

As far as LGBT things go, I think a friend put it well that the extremely on-the-down-low acknowledgment - if any exists at all - probably best seen as a reflection of the limitations of both the writers and the audience. But again, there are at least the Strong Implications present with Artemis in terms of both sexuality and gender. The Sundered also have that one minor sidequest NPC couple as well, though, too. But it's hard for me to believe that the Ancients put a lot of stock in gender and appearance, given it was known and accepted they could alter their bodies at will, and their understanding of the fluid nature of souls within the reincarnation cycle.

Honestly, one of the things I personally found "comforting" about the Ancient world, from that "both physically and mentally chronically ill/neurodivergent" angle, was the sense of how eager they seemed - even if sometimes it was a bit overbearing and misguided - to reach out and help those who were struggling or who might be deficient or lacking in aether manipulation. (I would presume that, given their abilities, most physical disabilities we know of were a non-issue.) Hythlodaeus, terrible at aether manipulation, was the front-running candidate for one of the highest seats in government. The researchers in Elpis who recognized your thin aether and promptly panicked in their rush to make you an aether smoothie to help. In Pandaemonium, Erichotonios has a complex about his lack of talent in most magicks, due to his complicated relationship with Lahabrea - however, from what we see, he has good, supportive relationships with all the other Keywards, and another highest-ranking-government-official figure rather vehemently stands up for him exactly as he is when Hesperos does try to disparage him for it. In Amaurot, when there was no judgment about your inability to use creation magicks on your own, but instead pretty even-toned support and proffered and prepared assistance, I thought, "oh, they have disability accommodations! How wonderful."

[EaraGrace]

I'm not sure the Ancients really had a 'class' of genuinely sapient familiars. Having done all the quests in Elpis, many of the researchers seem shocked that you're capable of understanding complex ideas and especially that you have a soul. One of them even gets kind of uncomfortable about the implications.

The vibe I got was that cases like Meteion are still very fringe, and people didn't really know what to do with them. There was probably a cultural conversation to be hard there.

See I actually have to hard disagree. The example of the Lyssa in Ktisis suggests they played fast and loose with sentience.

Let me use an example because I'm playing through Mass Effect again atm. Long story short, a group called the Quarians created synthetic helpers to handle their labor needs and gave them a very limited level of intelligence that was nowhere near sentience. Unintentionally however, they eventually did develop sentience. The Quarians, realizing what happened, went "oh no, we basically have slaves now," and quickly panicked thinking the Geth would rise up. This led to them trying to destroy the Geth and losing their homeworld.

Now the game rightfully points out how badly the Quarians fucked up, but I think the initial reaction is interesting to compare. The Quarians overreact and believe their slaves would destroy them because of their sentience, the Ancients go "wow neat! we should remake it with vocal cords for more experiments!" It kind of highlights what makes me squick at the Ancients handling of these things. They have the knowledge to know what is sentient and what isn't, the power to protect and coexist with that sentience without much cost, and yet they don't seem to care. I compare that to the Sundered, who yes struggle with this as well and deserve to be called out when aren't in the right, but still have many who try their best like with city states and the Allied tribes. In the Ancient world its just really Hermes who seems to care.

And on the question of queer representation, if were going to have Artemis as an example we would be remiss to not include Ryne and Gaia, who have a lot of evidence pointing to a queer reading of their relationship.

I also just love my gay daughters and wish them happiness so I will take every opportunity to mention them like a mom who constantly shows family photos.

[KariTheFox]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it was perfect, that doesn't justify the acts of genocide the ascians enacted in order to try and restore it.

And two, by the time of the sundering, the collapse of thier society was already a foregone conclusion. Even if the third sacrifice had restored everyone who intially sacrificed themselves to Zodiark, there would still be some form of ensouled life stuck in Zodiark now.

In that sense, Venat and her followers were not only Walking Away From Omelas, but making the city uninhabitable on thier way out too.

[Brinne]

I mean, that goes both ways. How we place Amaurot on the "perfection" spectrum doesn't matter when it comes to either justifying acts of violence on masses of innocent people on their behalf, or justifying acts of violence against them - along with the weird victim-blamey suggestions that they had it coming, brought it on themselves, and aren't worth mourning and trying to save if possible, either.

The Ancients were people. Generally well-intentioned people who yes, were sometimes flawed and made mistakes, but well-intentioned overall - with a well-intentioned society that seems to have done its best to accommodate as many people as possible while working for the greater good, in a way that I personally found touching and affecting. The fundamental conflict in Shadowbringers is that both groups of people, Sundered and Unsundered, were people worthy of being saved, but the situation was such that only one was going to be able to be.

I'm pretty sure I've made it obvious at this point that I fundamentally disagree with it being a "foregone conclusion" that they were doomed, and furthermore reject the premise that "if they are walking a path that will end in doom at some point, annihilating them immediately is acceptable", but that's ground that's been tread a million times over, and I don't really want to derail from the much more interesting points of discussion Lurina has been bringing up. Fundamentally, I'm happy to accept the general reading that the Rejoinings and the Sundering were roughly as morally terrible and unacceptable to inflict upon their mass amounts of respective victims, equally worthy living people, as each other - with an individual's mileage varying as far as further nuance into it goes.

[KariTheFox]

I mean, the only violence we commit against the ascians are that of self-defense. I don't think the ascians can say the same.

And I say it was a foregone conclusion because by the time of the sundering and the third sacrifice, the final days and creation of Zodiark had already occured, fundamentally changing the society of the ancients into one with blood sacrifice at the center of it.

And if Venat had say, done something to alter the future that she knew was to pass, that would just be abadoning our future and lives to our fate, since our existance is contigent on at least one timeline going the way we described to Venat.

[Brinne]

I mean, the only violence we commit against the ascians are that of self-defense. I don't think the ascians can say the same.

You'll notice I'm talking wholly about the Ancients/Amaurot, not the Ascians.

[Iscah]

I feel like the thing is that, for us, the Sundering isn't even a foregone conclusion (ie. a future event assumed to be inevitable) but simply the known outcome. We can feel sad about it but we can't undo it, and changing the past was never really compatible with what we were trying to achieve in Elpis – that is, seeing what happened in the past of our timeline to bring new information back to the present. If it was even possible to alter things and set it on a new path, we might not learn anything useful out of it, and would be saving an unfamiliar world at the expense of leaving our own to burn, or at best returning empty-handed.

We were warned before we went there that we must not change things and can only steel our hearts against what we would witness there, because it was already history for us.

And if Venat had say, done something to alter the future that she knew was to pass, that would just be abadoning our future and lives to our fate, since our existance is contigent on at least one timeline going the way we described to Venat.

I do keep coming back to speculating on how split timelines would work, but if it perhaps comes down to a key moment of chance or decision – because somehow time needs to both go in its new path and the old one as well, with a copy of everything in each. So even if Venat did change her future based on our warning, by necessity a version of her still has to end up in our timeline carrying out the tragedy we warned her she would fulfil.

If she succeeded, then we would never know, any more than G'raha's friends from the other future will know he succeeded. (Short of upgrading Alexander to jump timelines, anyway.)


Just wait for 11.0 where a time portal opens up and Biggs III, Mide and Dayan come barging through on Super Alexander, making a surprise stop on their way back to 100 years ago to found the Hotgo tribe. Turns out a world full of umbrally charged aether is great for powering up your umbrally aspected time machine and Alexander's presence is now helping to restore aetherial balance rather than disrupt it, so they're off on a temporal joyride to use up some battery. Please look forward to it.

[Thenightvortex]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it was perfect, that doesn't justify the acts of genocide the ascians enacted in order to try and restore it.

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it wasn’t perfect, that doesn't justify the act of genocide that Venat enacted in order to try and “save” it.

[RyuDragnier]

Really, asking if the Ancient society was perfect is doubly useless because for one, even if it wasn’t perfect, that doesn't justify the act of genocide that Venat enacted in order to try and “save” it.

Nor can anything justify the genocide the Ancients were willing to perform on the new life to bring back the old. At this point I think we can all agree that after the Final Days, morality was thrown out the door.