Will Sin-eaters get the Voidsent treatment?

[kaynide]

Have to keep in mind that the Voidsent have had perhaps thousands of years to develop into their current form since the fall of the 13th. The sin-eaters are still relatively young- arriving in living memory puts them at 100, maybe 150 years old (I forget exactly, but I do remember one NPC being alive for it as they remembered what the night sky was like).

This isn't to say Sineaters would become like voidsent given time, more that it is a possibility that we just don't know. Certainly, some of the older ones (job quest related) exhibited some intelligence above your average sineater...and of course Vauthry is an example of what a sineater could be.

We also have to keep in mind that Astral (stasis) and Umbral (active) have diffrent aspects- so the nature of aether might also have some effect on their evolution.

[Iscah]

Certainly, some of the older ones (job quest related) exhibited some intelligence above your average sineater...and of course Vauthry is an example of what a sineater could be.

The Virtues are apparently only recent creations, having only started appearing about three years ago.

Also, Vauthry isn't a good example of "what a sin eater could be" because he's half-human.

[kaynide]

The Virtues are apparently only recent creations, having only started appearing about three years ago.

Also, Vauthry isn't a good example of "what a sin eater could be" because he's half-human.

I'm not sure the Virtues are recent as their human bases were essentially there at ground zero- I would argue they are some of the first, just that the population at large wasn't aware of them until recently. Like Eden, my opinion is that they were mindless until recently, only now starting to act on their own motivations.

Regarding Vauthry- being half or born from a human mother doesn't necessarily make him any less of a sineater. We don't know the rules at play here- is being a sineater is not some kind of parentage DNA thing, is it more akin to a virus/zombie-ism? Is it using Tolkien rules? (eg. in Tolkien's LOTR, Elrond was born to a human and elven parent, yet despite his name he is a full elf while his brother a full human).

At the very least we can look to Eden itself as an example of an intelligent Sineater that was mindless until only recently. So certainly the possibility for gaining intellect is there.

[Ascended_Demon]

I'm not sure the Virtues are recent as their human bases were essentially there at ground zero- I would argue they are some of the first, just that the population at large wasn't aware of them until recently. Like Eden, my opinion is that they were mindless until recently, only now starting to act on their own motivations.

Regarding Vauthry- being half or born from a human mother doesn't necessarily make him any less of a sineater. We don't know the rules at play here- is being a sineater is not some kind of parentage DNA thing, is it more akin to a virus/zombie-ism? Is it using Tolkien rules? (eg. in Tolkien's LOTR, Elrond was born to a human and elven parent, yet despite his name he is a full elf while his brother a full human).

At the very least we can look to Eden itself as an example of an intelligent Sineater that was mindless until only recently. So certainly the possibility for gaining intellect is there.

Except we know for a fact the Virtues are creations of Vauthry, I believe Cylva explains that Vauthry had essentially reanimated their corpses. The Warriors of Darkness did not become sin eaters at ground zero because they had the Blessing of Light. Whether their lifeless bodies could be corrupted by the light so long as their souls persisted outside the life stream is uncertain but the theory posed by the Scions is that their bodies should have remained protected by it even in death but that since the aether of their souls was exhausted by Minfillia's efforts to stay the flood they were no longer protected. But the fact is they were 100% created by Vauthry.

And yes Vauthry is a sin eater but it is explicitly stated he is also a man, he is both, but like you said it does not make him any less of a sin eater but by the same token it does not make him less of mortal being. Sin eaters do not have a sense of self, they act purely on instinct; yet he clearly experiences emotions and all the imperfections of being a person. I think it would be more akin to like a symbiotic relationship except the sin eater does not have a self to impart onto Vauthry, it is fused with his very being. Sin eaters must consume living aether in order to survive and we know all too well that he is a cannibal (seen eating meol which is sin eater flesh). So he experiences the benefits of both but also the downsides of being both. He experiences the independent thought and emotions of people, which can be seen as both good and bad. On the sin eater/lightwarden side, he has great power which grants him command over lesser sin eaters but also the drive to consume living aether. Given that voidsent consume each other, I'm gonna say it would not be unusual for other sin eaters to consume each other it was just never witnessed by anyone.

EDIT: It occurs to me the reason for the lack of the blessing's protection was specifically for Ardbert which isn't exactly the same given that his soul technically still exists in a manner of speaking but it has joined the rest of the fragments of Azem within ours. The theory still stands however, if Ardbert was incapable of being reanimated like the other WoDs since his soul still persisted then it would stand to reason that the others lacked this protection because the aether of their souls has disappeared.

[kaynide]

Except we know for a fact the Virtues are creations of Vauthry.

Good point I did not remember- I retract my stance on the Virtues; I'm still not sure on Vauthry, and of course there is still Eden... though perhaps one could argue Eden is something else too (half Ascian, or that Ascian souls do something different when turned)

I still would argue my main point that Sineaters as a "race" are still young, and there is a lot of unknown in that, especially on whether a typical Sineater could eventually become self-aware/intelligent given enough time.

[Puksi]

And yes Vauthry is a sin eater but it is explicitly stated he is also a man, he is both, but like you said it does not make him any less of a sin eater but by the same token it does not make him less of mortal being. Sin eaters do not have a sense of self, they act purely on instinct; yet he clearly experiences emotions and all the imperfections of being a person.

Titania is also described as "corrupted" in this same way--a living being overwhelmed by the power of a Lightwarden. Still retained enough of their former self to be "sick of this cramped old castle", and still retained their form, but apparently now too murderous for even the Fuath.

Maybe it's more a parasitic relationship than symbiotic? The emergence of Innocence never looked like an actual transformation to me, as the face in Vauthry's chest sinks in, and when his back splits open, you can actually see Innocence's head/hair/back/wings inside. It gave the impression of some Junji Ito nightmare meat cocoon. The aether-like sparkles while it was happening suggested the sin eater just absorbed what was left of the host's body, but still retained that twisted version of Vauthry's self as the Il Mheg Warden retained Titania's.

I really wish they had explained things better than that footnote of a cutscene with Emet-Selch and the Former Mayor.

meol which is sin eater flesh

This part has always confused me. Sin Eaters throughout the game were shown to have no blood, bones, or meat. They dissolve into sparkles--the dialogues really stressed the sparkles thing iirc, as those would turn anyone caught in them into an Eater also. Even Tesleen, who recently turned, just poofed when defeated in Holminster Switch.

Did they just dust those buns with sparklies like it was flour? Condense the sin eater down like a soup?

There weren't enough people in Kholusia to "disappear" for twenty years to do all that, without starting a panic. And I'm still not sure why the extra step of bread was required. Meol was an optional dish for the rest of the Eulmorans, and if it was part of some plan, it was a terrible one. It just made some of them sleepy, and the others lurch around and mumble, lol.

Getting back on topic--Voidsent seem a lot more focused and less prone to random outbursts to the Light-corrupted on The First? So far, anyway. Zero doesn't seem a perfect parallel to Vauthry, as Zero isn't hosting another creature in her hitbox, unless maybe Zeromus is hiding under that cool glam. (But that would be too obvious!)

[Iscah]

Meol was an optional dish for the rest of the Eulmorans, and if it was part of some plan, it was a terrible one. It just made some of them sleepy, and the others lurch around and mumble, lol.

The primary purpose was to make them loyal to him – mildly sedated, unperturbed by the horrors going on in the corners of society as it all lurches towards the Rejoining. Plus they were unable to rebel even if they were ineffectual as an army.

It's quite likely they were eating meol in the city as well – maybe dressed up more nicely, but still. Put a bit of it in everything and the effect will be the same over time.

[Puksi]

The only thing that gives me pause is the fact meol was an optional dish. During the encounter at Eulmore, there were a lot of people who weren't affected at all, both inside and outside the city. If it was an attempt to quell uprisings like the ones Vauthry's father apparently had, it would have missed a lot of potential rebels.

After the buildup of how frighteningly easy it was to be turned, the "time release tempering" by sin eater buns--for twenty years of Vauthry's rule--just struck me as really odd. No one showed signs like the Afflicted in Ahm Araeng when we visited Eulmore, but Ahm Araeng and Eulmore both were exposed to Sin Eaters. Would a citizen with a sweet tooth turn inside the city? Wouldn't people have eventually sickened like the Afflicted? It seems that would be a bad look for the man who promised safety from the sin eaters.

That said, I don't really count Alphinaud stating the Eulmorans were all of their own free will up until that point as concrete proof. How on earth could he know that, lmao.

But the Eulmore arc wasn't even a thing until the last minute, so deadlines may have been partly to blame for what I see as pretty glaring plotholes.

[SentioftheHoukai]

I really wish they had explained things better than that footnote of a cutscene with Emet-Selch and the Former Mayor.

Why? I daresay it wouldn't have validated or canonized this weird little "Vauthry was completely innocent and naught more than an innocent victim of the mean old Emet-Selch" fantasy you cannot seem to let go of.

The primary purpose was to make them loyal to him – mildly sedated, unperturbed by the horrors going on in the corners of society as it all lurches towards the Rejoining. Plus they were unable to rebel even if they were ineffectual as an army.

It's quite likely they were eating meol in the city as well – maybe dressed up more nicely, but still. Put a bit of it in everything and the effect will be the same over time.

The only thing that gives me pause is the fact meol was an optional dish. During the encounter at Eulmore, there were a lot of people who weren't affected at all, both inside and outside the city. If it was an attempt to quell uprisings like the ones Vauthry's father apparently had, it would have missed a lot of potential rebels.

After the buildup of how frighteningly easy it was to be turned, the "time release tempering" by sin eater buns--for twenty years of Vauthry's rule--just struck me as really odd. No one showed signs like the Afflicted in Ahm Araeng when we visited Eulmore, but Ahm Araeng and Eulmore both were exposed to Sin Eaters. Would a citizen with a sweet tooth turn inside the city? Wouldn't people have eventually sickened like the Afflicted? It seems that would be a bad look for the man who promised safety from the sin eaters.

That said, I don't really count Alphinaud stating the Eulmorans were all of their own free will up until that point as concrete proof. How on earth could he know that, lmao.

But the Eulmore arc wasn't even a thing until the last minute, so deadlines may have been partly to blame for what I see as pretty glaring plotholes.

Seems Puksi's at it again with his almighty, righteous crusade that operates under the delusion that Vauthry shares no culpability whatsoever for what Eulmore became under his rule. I guess it was too much to hope for that this bizarre crusade of yours stay back in 2019, from whence it stemmed.

Then again, congratulations Puksi! You've invented time travel! Far more of an expert on it than Eara could ever be, clearly~ ;3

[Puksi]

Why? I daresay it wouldn't have validated or canonized this weird little "Vauthry was completely innocent and naught more than an innocent victim of the mean old Emet-Selch" fantasy you cannot seem to let go of.

Do I know you? Because this is the second thread you've come from nowhere and tried to pick a fight with me.

I'm morbidly curious how you think an unborn child wasn't an innocent victim, but you do you, whoever you are. ʅ(ツ)ʃ

Edit: From 2019? That's...not creepy or anything.