The sad state of Coils of Bahamut.

[vetch]

Once again, this is not what I’m arguing against. Coils is fun and interesting! It would be great if Savage Pandemonium played similarly to Coils! But you cannot expect to clear Coils with a random DF group without teaching the fight beforehand. Please reread my first sentence: I do not want present Coils to go away, I want a normal Coils that can be cleared with a random party.

You'll forgive me for being confused about your positions after reading your later sentences about the ARR endgame fight design being worth less money (???).

What content in Raid/Trial roulette doesn’t fit that criteria you listed? This goes back to even ARR Hard mode. The “tankbusters” are cleaves that tickle, the raidwides tickle, the safe spots are still obvious, the boss stands still auto attacking for an entire minute, some adds pop up and sometimes you can ignore them completely. This is how all normal fights play. Not asking for any more encounters like this is asking for no more encounters at all. And the thing is, making it any harder than that will make DF groups disband because a wipe being decided by a curebot is not fun when you want to go through dailies.

Ramuh stuns require counterintuitive cures. Shiva cleaves kill non-tanks and walls imprison you. Nabriales Triple Spark kills tanks and time dilation rewards clever buff usage. (old)Moggle Mog's raidwide wiped if you ignored adds. Ifrit nails kill if ignored. Relic Hydra casts untelegraphed puddles and Hysteria AoE. Leviathan add casts Hysteria if ignored. Sophia add's ice puddle kills if not off-tanked out of the way. Bismarck is mostly an adds fight. A5N kills unless you stop DPSing and devote yourself to some mechanics. A6N is all about irregular AoEs. A9N adds must be moved and killed correctly. In A10N you can set off AoEs if you're not careful.

It's not about being easy. These fights are still easy. You can explain the mechanics I've mentioned with a single sentence before the pull. Nobody disbands for them. The mechanics are different and non-formulaic because the devs were still trying to make them different.

I understand you want fights to be less monotonous, but level 50 is not the place for that. You are no longer new to the game, so this stuff is boring and easy for you. But sprouts have not played through ShB and EW yet. They’re being told by us, “Oh yeah coils is actually way harder than all the other raids just don’t bother playing it synced for now” and the only 8-player content they have reasonable access to is primals. There is nowhere else to learn to play with a co-tank or co-healer. That’s why I want normal Coils.

Who is 'us'? You got a mouse in your pocket? When a sprout asks me about Coils I offer them congratulations on having great taste and invite them to one of the Discord servers that runs synced Coils daily.

Level 50 is a perfectly fine place for content to be less monotonous, it's actually equal in importance to level 90 because there are so many more new players at 50 to be impressed by the quality. Nobody's impressed by new 6.0-style Copperbell Mines when the boss winds up for a 5-second tankbuster cast and then hits for barely more than an auto-attack, and they're not learning anything about tankbusters either.

Sprouts literally have all the content in every expansion to look forward to. They're not suffering for lack of 8-mans upon hitting level 50. Most of the new players I've accompanied through the process actually want less sidestory content to do in post-ARR because they're excited to get to Heavensward.

[Iscah]

Sprouts literally have all the content in every expansion to look forward to. They're not suffering for lack of 8-mans upon hitting level 50. Most of the new players I've accompanied through the process actually want less sidestory content to do in post-ARR because they're excited to get to Heavensward.

That could be because the biggest "side stories" of ARR turn out to be mandatory now.

I still think it would be far better for Coil to be possible for people to do through duty finder at 50, because while some amount of people want to rush through as fast as they can, others will prefer to do everything in the expansion before moving on to the next one. (Not just new players, but also more veteran players going back to replay the early parts of the story.) For narrative coherence it is better to do everything as it becomes available, as it keeps the story in proper chronological order.

In particular, not having done Coil at its intended place means that Alisaie's interactions with you at level 60 are more muted and you don't know her as well as you are supposed to in the "canon" all-prior-quests-completed version of the storyline.

[vetch]

That could be because the biggest "side stories" of ARR turn out to be mandatory now.

Possibly? I certainly have... opinions... on them folding optional sidestory content characters into the main story. I know this is an unpopular position because G'raha is everyone's favorite catboyfriend from everyone's favorite expansion, but if Estinien's backstory from the DRG job quests wasn't required for Heavensward and Nero's backstory from the Crystal Tower wasn't required for Stormblood, then G'raha's shouldn't have been required for Shadowbringers. There are ways to write that same plotline while leaving optional raids optional and not shoehorning more mandatory exposition during a part of the game that's already one of the most boring slogs. Anyway, that feels like a tangent.

I still think it would be far better for Coil to be possible for people to do through duty finder at 50, because while some amount of people want to rush through as fast as they can, others will prefer to do everything in the expansion before moving on to the next one. (Not just new players, but also more veteran players going back to replay the early parts of the story.) For narrative coherence it is better to do everything as it becomes available, as it keeps the story in proper chronological order.

In particular, not having done Coil at its intended place means that Alisaie's interactions with you at level 60 are more muted and you don't know her as well as you are supposed to in the "canon" all-prior-quests-completed version of the storyline.

I don't think I agree that her characterization is informed by references to the events of Coils, as sparse as the references actually are.

And this is a personal thing, but it's annoying that half of the other Scions waltz onto the stage absolutely full-to-the-bung with unearned familiarity, like they're the player's best friend from childhood. It's actually fine with me to have Alisaie keep me at a respectful distance, as opposed to Moenbryda insulting me, G'raha toying with me, or Krile launching into the hottest gossip about Alphinaud. And it's not a case of them having met or not met your character before in Coils, they're just written like twerps.

So I don't feel like I'm missing anything by not being instantly intimate friends with Alisaie... rather I feel grateful that she's a different type of character on a slower-burn trajectory. I'm not sure I'd enjoy it if the changes from completing Coils were as noticeable to me as you seem to find them.

I suppose this is all just to say that it's no comfort to me for a story to be the way you think it's supposed to be if it becomes less enjoyable as a result of having its errors removed.

[VerdeLuck]

How many people advocating for these to not be changed regularly run them? I queued daily for Coils in Duty Finder and made PFs for weeks before giving up and unsyncing the fights to see the story.
There's no point keeping them around to not "dumb down" the game if no one plays them anymore. I'd rather see them get reworked to be more modern and able to be run more frequently than stay dead content nobody touches.

[FireMage]

How many people advocating for these to not be changed regularly run them? I queued daily for Coils in Duty Finder and made PFs for weeks before giving up and unsyncing the fights to see the story.
There's no point keeping them around to not "dumb down" the game if no one plays them anymore. I'd rather see them get reworked to be more modern and able to be run more frequently than stay dead content nobody touches.

>Dead content

>Is done all the time, for various reasons, far more than the other past high end raids

Pick one

[flowerfairy]

snip

I hope that you aren’t confusing “different” for “well-designed”.
Ramuh has that one charm mechanic, sure. What else does he do, summon adds that you ignore the second time around? Put a tether that makes you have to stop attacking and run around collecting orbs?
Nabriales is a joke of a fight. Tanks use a cooldown or two while everyone spams 123 until it’s time to pop the really exciting balls. There is no clever usage of buffs in the time stop part.
As I remember, old King Moggle Mog's adds were the entire focus which is why his raidwide worked as a soft enrage. They still didn’t do anything, you just kill them. With item level cheese you didn't even have to kill them 1-by-1, you just spam AoE in the middle and they die.
Garuda's sisters are ignored unless your dps is somehow getting outhealed. No one cares about the rocks.
Ifrit's adds is the only mechanic he does, everything else is spam 123.
Levi's adds is the only mechanic he does, everything else is spam 123.
Chimera stands around and does nothing but sometimes you need to Silence/Esuna something. Lightning orb is the only interesting attack.
Hydra’s Fear Itself is a start, but what is it supposed to teach a new player? It would be more interesting if it started to charge while targeted puddles drop just before Fear Itself is finished charging. And an orange indicator just before it goes off so you don’t think it’s just some raidwide fear.
Bismarck is boring, period. The water orbs are unintuitive. Even Extreme is boring.
Ravana is literally the “charge an attack for really long” fight you don’t like. Adds and the wall breaking knockback are the only mechanics that matter.

I like trials like Shiva, Titan, Nidhogg and Warring Triad because these fights have you do something. They have mechanics that are most similar to ShB and EW trials that you fervently hate and yet they’re way more engaging than stand still and spam 123. Alexander and Warring Triads were able to be more punishing because they’re optional content. It’s natural to expect a normal Coils to be much easier than what it is now but comparing it to Copperbell makes no sense.

Yes, level 50 is just as important as level 90 for first impressions. Which is why I want raids to be reasonably accessible at level 50. Sprouts aren’t complaining about excess side content, they’re complaining about excess MSQ content. It’s weird to think that when sprouts are showing interest in Coils in the first place.

It’s great that you and others participate in running synced Coils daily. But you do not make up the majority of NA ignoring Synced Coils runs in PF, just like us on the forums do not voice for the majority of players in-game. The other thread had people saying “just do it unsynced for the story”. No matter how you put it, Coils is dead content.

[flowerfairy]

>Dead content

>Is done all the time, for various reasons, far more than the other past high end raids

Pick one

Yes, it is ran more than other past high-end trials. Because that’s the only way to access the story. Please stop comparing it to other raids.

[ReynTime]

Coils story doesn't add anything substantial to Alphinaud or Alisaie's MSQ development that isn't already exposed in as much, if not more detail as is. It's mostly a resolution for players who experienced the final arc of 1.0~1.23b and for the bandwagon riders who joined during ShB's days to clear unsynced and pretend it turned them into 1.0 lore masters.
It doesn't need to be mandatory and it shouldn't be nerfed.

[flowerfairy]

I agree, it shouldn’t be a mandatory MSQ quest and the present Coils shouldn’t be nerfed. There should be a normal version that level 50 players can choose to go through without having to wait a long time in PF.

[vetch]

I hope that you aren’t confusing “different” for “well-designed”.

I hope that you aren't confusing 'trivialized by ilevel' for 'inherently uninteresting'. That's a second, separate discussion that you're conflating with the question of which mechanic types are more fun.

I could turn it around on you and claim that there's no way Shiva is interesting because ilevel sync and potency bloat is so severe in ARR that you can eat most of her AoEs and burn her down, which is literally true and probably also safer than trying to parse where to stand as a new player; do you think that would invalidate your opinion on her mechanic style? Just because most modern groups don't see half of her kit because she dies 30 seconds into phase 2?

No, right? In fact it would probably feel like I was arguing past your point. So then why would other mechanics be less interesting to me in theory just because they usually don't wipe in practice thanks to generous ilevel sync?

It’s natural to expect a normal Coils to be much easier than what it is now but comparing it to Copperbell makes no sense.

Makes perfect sense when you treat Copperbell and the other revamped MSQ dungeons as evidence in conjecturing what CBU3's modern fight design strategy will look like scaled down to ARR levels. Dodge pattern AoE, heal up raidwide, dodge different pattern AoE, mitigate tankbuster, monger for DPS uptime. They're all like that.

Yes, level 50 is just as important as level 90 for first impressions. Which is why I want raids to be reasonably accessible at level 50. Sprouts aren’t complaining about excess side content, they’re complaining about excess MSQ content. It’s weird to think that when sprouts are showing interest in Coils in the first place.

It’s great that you and others participate in running synced Coils daily. But you do not make up the majority of NA ignoring Synced Coils runs in PF, just like us on the forums do not voice for the majority of players in-game. The other thread had people saying “just do it unsynced for the story”. No matter how you put it, Coils is dead content.

I don't know why you're pointing the thread out to me, I'm literally right there commenting in it. "Unsync it" is a valid response to "I don't want to wait for PF to see this old sidestory", but also, synced Coils is already several times more active than Alex/Omega Savage, its closest analogues.

ARR doesn't lack for 8-man content at all, it has twice as many trials as later expansions, and 'normal raids' are just trials by another name.

Speaking of 'players in-game' I have my own examples (that are easily as anecdotal as yours are) of sprouts being disappointed that Omega and later raids aren't as mechanically interesting and varied as Coils.

I agree, it shouldn’t be a mandatory MSQ quest and the present Coils shouldn’t be nerfed. There should be a normal version that level 50 players can choose to go through without having to wait a long time in PF.

You're gonna wait a long time either way, the T12 pre-fight cutscene is like five minutes. Imagine getting that in raids roulette for 5 days in a row.