Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[WellGramarye]

Snip

Nothing in the lore shows this to be true with how time travel is handled. The lore shows two types of time travel. Branching alternate time lines, based on large decisions that change the future, and small self contained loops that do not change the future significantly.

Shadowbringers was the former and EW and Alex the latter. There is NO evidence that events in an alternate branch timeline affect the other branches without some kind of time travel device (Alexander, The Tycoon.)

Gra'ha changes his future by stopping the 8UE, so he can no longer return to that timeline even though it still exists. Elidibus' warning is that if we try to change the timeline by stopping the End of Days in the past, because we and everything we're fighting for exists because of the Sundering, will not exist when we return, thus creating another branch. This is the whole reason for the closed loop paradox and the convergence with Venat/Hydaelyn.

We are currently on a branch timeline, but the game, by factor of we're the main character, is shown from OUR POV.

Timeline 1

Ancient world -> Meteia -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> B -> We Die -> 8UC -> Tycoon Created -> Time Travel -> A ->Midgarsormr Sidestory

Graha leaves at A ends up at B.

Timeline 2

Ancient world -> Meteia ->B -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> Graha ends up on First -> SB -> EW -> A -> Current Patch

We leave at A end up at B, but return to A.


In Timeline 1, we do not EXIST to be able to go back in time. Without Graha, going back in time we can NEVER go back to Elpis. Our actions in Elpis are irrelevant to the timeline from the Ancient World up to EW, because things happening in Elpis would have happened anyway. The Metia, the summoning of Zodiark, and the Sundering, all happen whether we show up there or not. Elidibus all but straight up says this in his line about not meddling.

So what changes with us going back? The knowledge that Venat has, but refuses to act upon, and the knowledge we gain and DO act upon.

[Iscah]

Nothing in the lore shows this to be true with how time travel is handled. The lore shows two types of time travel. Branching alternate time lines, based on large decisions that change the future, and small self contained loops that do not change the future significantly.

Shadowbringers was the former and EW and Alex the latter.

Yes, those are the two types of time travel (or more accurately results of time travel) that are shown in the narrative, although I would disagree with using "large" and "small" labels. Elpis is the temporally largest instance of time travel we've seen, spanning 12,000 years, and yet is a causal loop rather than a timeline-splitter.

There is NO evidence that events in an alternate branch timeline affect the other branches without some kind of time travel device (Alexander, The Tycoon.)

I never claimed that different branches could interact, although I suspect you are using "branches" differently to me in any case.

To my understanding, we cannot directly cross timelines in the game with our current technology. There is no way for us to make contact with the 8UE timeline.

I'm not even sure exactly what you're referring to with this statement, because I don't believe I've made any reference to time travel that does not involve a time machine.


The closest thing to someone affecting another timeline is G'raha's timeline-breaking efforts, but that was achieved by travelling backwards along a single timeline and then being naturally carried by the flow of time into the beginning of a different branch. There was no jumping of timelines involved.

Gra'ha changes his future by stopping the 8UE, so he can no longer return to that timeline even though it still exists. Elidibus' warning is that if we try to change the timeline by stopping the End of Days in the past, because we and everything we're fighting for exists because of the Sundering, will not exist when we return, thus creating another branch. This is the whole reason for the closed loop paradox and the convergence with Venat/Hydaelyn.

In the scenario that we altered the past by preventing the Sundering, the thing that would create a branch would be our actions in the past, not our return to the present. A second timeline would branch off starting from the time of Elpis, and we would be permanently stuck in it (unless the nature of the time portal means that it remains tethered to the timeline from which we started).

We are currently on a branch timeline, but the game, by factor of we're the main character, is shown from OUR POV.

Timeline 1

Ancient world -> Meteia -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> B -> We Die -> 8UC -> Tycoon Created -> Time Travel -> A ->Midgarsormr Sidestory

Graha leaves at A ends up at B.

Timeline 2

Ancient world -> Meteia ->B -> Zodiark -> Sundering -> ARR -> Crystal Tower Raids -> HW -> SB -> Graha ends up on First -> SB -> EW -> A -> Current Patch

We leave at A end up at B, but return to A.


In Timeline 1, we do not EXIST to be able to go back in time. Without Graha, going back in time we can NEVER go back to Elpis. Our actions in Elpis are irrelevant to the timeline from the Ancient World up to EW, because things happening in Elpis would have happened anyway. The Metia, the summoning of Zodiark, and the Sundering, all happen whether we show up there or not. Elidibus all but straight up says this in his line about not meddling.

So what changes with us going back? The knowledge that Venat has, but refuses to act upon, and the knowledge we gain and DO act upon.

I'm not following your explanation at all. If these are branches, where do they branch off? Why does it need two complete timelines starting from the ancient world just to diverge at Shadowbringers?

[WellGramarye]

I'm not following your explanation at all. If these are branches, where do they branch off? Why does it need two complete timelines starting from the ancient world just to diverge at Shadowbringers?

Regardless of where it branches off, in Graha's original timeline, before he jumped ship and changed his own future, there was a past that happened. This is what a timeline is. Point A to Point B to Point C etc. He diverged his timeline after Stormblood, which enabled the WoL to be able to go back in time. In this new timeline, which is seperate from the original because we now exist in it again, continue past Stormblood, through Shadowbringers, and into Endwalker where we go back 12,500 years, and learn new things about the End times.

This has an effect of thus:

1. We warn Venat of the future. In Graha's original timeline Venat could not have been warned about the future because we did not exist to go back in time to tell her.
2. We gain knowledge of the Endsinger, and spread that to both the Scions and Sharlyan. In Graha's original timeline this could not have been known because we would have never gone back in time because we were dead, and could not have told anyone about any of this.
3. We travel and have an affect on the events of Pandaemonium. This is to be seen how this may have differed, but more than likely the place got nuked or something originally.
4. During our trip to Elpis we cannot change the events that happen there significantly, as that would cause a MAJOR Paradox. By stopping the End of Days, we would prevent the sundering, which would make us as the player character and our world, not exist in that current world, and create yet another branch timeline. This is what Elidibus warns of.


It would be more appropriate to say that by changing the future, Graha created a Parallel Universe, that has a different history and leads a different path than the one his original world took.

If this still isn't clear, I'll make an illustration.

[Iscah]

Regardless of where it branches off, in Graha's original timeline, before he jumped ship and changed his own future, there was a past that happened. This is what a timeline is. Point A to Point B to Point C etc. He diverged his timeline after Stormblood, which enabled the WoL to be able to go back in time. In this new timeline, which is seperate from the original because we now exist in it again [...]

Diverged the timeline, yes. That means to separate into two streams at that point while remaining a single stream up to that point.

But to say we "exist in it again" is misleading. He went back in time to a point before we died and created a path where we never ceased to exist in the first place. There is no gap.

And you're still not giving any reason why changing events from Stormblood onwards should mean that the timeline separates into two completely separate timelines with different pasts all the way back to Elpis, even though G'raha started in the same timeline as us with the same past as us.

[WellGramarye]

Diverged the timeline, yes. That means to separate into two streams at that point while remaining a single stream up to that point.

But to say we "exist in it again" is misleading. He rewound time to a point before we died and created a path where we never ceased to exist in the first place. There is no gap.

And you're still not giving any reason why changing events from Stormblood onwards should mean that the timeline separates into two completely separate timelines with different pasts all the way back to Elpis, even though G'raha started in the same timeline as us with the same past as us.

You cannot rewind time. The original timeline, in which the 8UC happened still exists, and still continues to exist and still continues to move forward in time. This Story takes place after Graha heads back in time. This timeline, parallel universe, w/e you wanna call it, does not have a WoL to go back in time to go to Elpis. This mean its entire history back to Elpis is different from the current universe/timeline/reality.

[Iscah]

You cannot rewind time. The original timeline, in which the 8UC happened still exists, and still continues to exist and still continues to move forward in time.

I chose the wrong word and revised it, apparently while you were posting this. I do know that the 8UE timeline continues forward after he leaves.

[WellGramarye]

I chose the wrong word and revised it, apparently while you were posting this. I do know that the 8UE timeline continues forward after he leaves.

It happens, I don't fault for it, I do it too. Its hard to get our thoughts out coherently and clearly some times. I can't understand what you aren't understanding though.

Maybe this will help.

How can the events of Elpis happen (as they did in EW,) from the point of view of someone in the story I linked after Graha goes back in time?

[redheadturk]

4. During our trip to Elpis we cannot change the events that happen there significantly, as that would cause a MAJOR Paradox. By stopping the End of Days, we would prevent the sundering, which would make us as the player character and our world, not exist in that current world, and create yet another branch timeline. This is what Elidibus warns of.


It would be more appropriate to say that by changing the future, Graha created a Parallel Universe, that has a different history and leads a different path than the one his original world took.

If this still isn't clear, I'll make an illustration.

So what? A branched timeline where the Ancients get to live and be happy is what we want

[RyuDragnier]

So what? A branched timeline where the Ancients get to live and be happy is what we want

Well it isn't gonna happen, so you're gonna have to accept that. Like how I had to accept that we'd never get a 3rd zone for Bozja. <_<