Do people on these forums only complain endlessly?

[ElenaRedoran]

Another day, another General thread seething about Venat.

Precisely! Based take.

Just to be clear, I was talking about Emet-Selch/the ascians in general. I guess I wasn’t expecting to find some people actually consider Hydaelin to be the main villain/evil/genocidal.

[Theodric]

It's almost like people can see genocide as a bad and highly unfortunate thing across the board, rather than solely when it's conducted by the antagonists.

The common stance for many is, in actuality, that although it makes sense for the Sundered not to be expected to just roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered the reverse is true as well. Furthermore, it was Hydaelyn who put both sides in such an unpleasant position in the first place so criticising her for that is...not at all unreasonable. To claim otherwise is to suggest that sometimes genocide is 'necessary', at which point we circle back to wondering why those arguing as such even have an issue in the first place.

Furthermore, it's just pixels on a screen at the end of the day. Nobody becomes a serial killer in the real world if they join the Dark Brotherhood in an Elder Scrolls game.

[Kazhar]

Just to be clear, I was talking about Emet-Selch/the ascians in general. I guess I wasn’t expecting to find some people actually consider Hydaelin to be the main villain/evil/genocidal.

Main villain and evil are debatable, I can see arguments on both sides (even though I'm really partial to the idea that yes, she is an evil person). But is it really SUCH a stretch to see the idea of intentionally and forcefully destroying the bodies and personalities of millions of people as awfully similar (if not a textbook definition) to genocide? When it's said on different social media platforms some people react extremely negatively like we've taken crazy pills and I've no idea why.

[Teraq]

Main villain and evil are debatable, I can see arguments on both sides (even though I'm really partial to the idea that yes, she is an evil person). But is it really SUCH a stretch to see the idea of intentionally and forcefully destroying the bodies and personalities of millions of people as awfully similar (if not a textbook definition) to genocide? When it's said on different social media platforms some people react extremely negatively like we've taken crazy pills and I've no idea why.

I am genuinely baffled by this game's fanbase. Coming from a franchise which has Sephiroth and Kefka as some of its most popular characters, not to mention Kuja, the varied Shinra employees… Villains have always been popular, no matter the body count or even sometimes because of it.

[TheSuperior]

I am genuinely baffled by this game's fanbase. Coming from a franchise which has Sephiroth and Kefka as some of its most popular characters, not to mention Kuja, the varied Shinra employees… Villains have always been popular, no matter the body count or even sometimes because of it.

It's ok to like hot characters and last I checked, Sephiroth and just about all of ShinRa are s m o k i n'

[Teraq]

I also can't see where anyone here has used the 'b' word to describe Venat...?

What a classic. Make the not-so-subtle accusation of misogyny where there was none to score internet points. Venat's gender has never mattered, whether out of universe (as far as I'm concerned) or within, because that's just how based Ancients were.

Not only was Venat's choice only really "impossible" in her head because of her own fears about how people would react, leading to her inaction, but substituting the word "genocide" by its definition doesn't really make it any less genocide.

[Hurlstone]

I do think there are folk who will use such wording less as accurate descriptions of events and more to try and make others look bad, even akin to support such actions in real life. Such as describing Hydaelyn as ‘Murder Mommy’ etc. In the end it really is silly/stupid to try and say that someone being a fan of a villain is a supporter of their actions/ideology. Is everyone with a Darth Vader figure a supporter of child murder? Anyone who has read a Punisher comic a psychopath?

[Theodric]

I do think there are folk who will use such wording less as accurate descriptions of events and more to try and make others look bad, even akin to support such actions in real life. Such as describing Hydaelyn as ‘Murder Mommy’ etc. In the end it really is silly/stupid to try and say that someone being a fan of a villain is a supporter of their actions/ideology. Is everyone with a Darth Vader figure a supporter of child murder? Anyone who has read a Punisher comic a psychopath?

I think the difference is that when Venat is criticised, it's Venat being criticised...whereas often when Emet-Selch or the Garleans are criticised the attacks are more personal and consist of calling people 'misogynists', 'fascists', 'racists' and 'genocide apologists'. All of which has happened repeatedly over the years that this game has existed - and yet when a tiny bit of pushback is embraced that pushback is falsely amplified into 'both sides' or the worst atrocity ever committed on the internet.

"Endwalker is badly written because it didn't go the way I wanted it to. Also, I love the genocidal mass murderer."

...and the thread itself also opened up with this. If we're describing the Ascians in such terms then they'd technically be correct. Though so, too, are they an apt descriptor when applied to Venat.

[Hurlstone]

I think the difference is that when Venat is criticised, it's Venat being criticised...whereas often when Emet-Selch or the Garleans are criticised the attacks are more personal and consist of calling people 'misogynists', 'fascists', 'racists' and 'genocide apologists'. All of which has happened repeatedly over the years that this game has existed - and yet when a tiny bit of pushback is embraced that pushback is falsely amplified into 'both sides' or the worst atrocity ever committed on the internet.

See, I do not entirely agree with that. With Venat's criticisms, I have often also seen things such as insults that her fans are ‘lacking in critical thinking’ or simply apart of a ‘herd mentality/echo chamber.’ along with it. I do not really think there is a misogynistic edge to the criticisms as some say, but the constant referring to her as ‘MuMMy/murder mom’ in a specific way does feel like an attempt to dehumanise or belittle her fans. Sure many of the comments will be genuine criticism and debate on the character and narrative, but its not so black and white. I admit, I have not been as active in the forums long enough to see as much Emet/Ascians hate as other describe, but it sucks that people would do that and such accusations are never called for… but the fact that such personal and aimed criticism has happened is not really a defence to use the same tactics on others just for spite.

Sure perhaps it would be different if we where talking more about real life issues, where such heated debate would be more acceptable and supported, but as you and others have said, in the end this is a video game.

[Boblawblah]

Firstly, it isn't 'extreme language' at all. Nobody is swearing when it comes to Venat and if you've been following this thread's trajectory it seems...strange to ignore the full on meltdown including shouting and swearing from someone rushing to defend Venat against the 'evil edgelords'. Secondly, I imagine a lot of people aren't hugely interested in the idea of seeking approval for approval's sake. A more sensible approach would be for people to agree to disagree. Nobody is obligated to root for Venat or find her motives and actions praiseworthy.

I think what the real issue here is that some people simply aren't used to both sides being called out for what is essentially the same thing. The Sundering qualifies as genocide as the same way as the Rejoinings do. It really isn't anymore complicated than that. If the intention was for the writers to endear people to Venat then not making her deliberately responsible for the genocide of countless innocents, already traumatised by the Final Days, would have been the smarter move.

I also can't see where anyone here has used the 'b' word to describe Venat...?

If you don't care to understand why people disagree with you, then fair enough. Stick to your little group here, feeling superior. It IS extreme language for most people imo.