SGE getting a shield on holos shows a much bigger problem with healer design

[Supersnow845]

So as we know the most commonly accepted theory on why SGE this rather large buff to holos is because in DSR spreadlo provides such a greater degree of shielding capacity that PF has been restricting SGE, now with the buff on holos, holos+Zoe+eukrasian prognosis roughly equals spreadlo when only buffed with protraction.

So this may seem like a good thing, however without its ace in the hole (spreadlo) what does 5.0 SCH offer to the party that doesn’t just amount to “clunky SGE with a bit more damage” besides its totem healing: not much.

This bleeds into the idea that it’s obvious square doesn’t balance for double shields because this choice both makes that comp better and also assumes (mostly correctly) that SGE is being hard locked because SCH shares its position; a situation they themselves caused by introducing this regen healer split. Since all comps have to be able to clear and the healers have almost no variation in damage offers they are homogenised based on their healing capabilities, however all this does is just make them all feel the same.

So if square isn’t going to change their design philosophy over healer damage then why do they need to make all their healing exactly the same as well, SGE was introduced as a better mitigator worse shielder (debatable but has some merits as both expedient and SS have strings attached), why isn’t that being leant into to fix this gap (which doesn’t even need to exist because SCH/SGE can already clear totally fine without this stupid healer split) why is the answer to healers always (they need to be exactly the same

[Renathras]

So this may seem like a good thing, however without its ace in the hole (spreadlo) what does 5.0 SCH offer to the party that doesn’t just amount to “clunky SGE with a bit more damage” besides its totem healing: not much.

I get that there are LOTS of valid criticisms in life and about the game...but when it comes down to it, there's a lot of melodrama and hyperbole. For example, this question is very easy to answer:

"What does SCH offer the party that doesn't just amount to "clunky SGE with a bit more damage"?

Well, first off, I find SGE to be the "clunky" one, but to each their own, that's subjective/stylistic/opinion. Let's talk concrete offerings:

Chain Strategem - Critical strike buff which boosts party damage (even WITH Jobs that auto crit, it still boosts the OVERALL party's damage for the other members)

Expedience - A quick movement buff which has already shown it's power to the point it had to be buffed to half-duration on the Sprint because it was borderline OP in encounters.

Remote healing - You hand-wave away "its totem healing", but that's actually a VERY powerful utility in a lot of encounters. You can't just ignore something like that because you want to.

Protraction buffed Deploy Critlo is STILL more powerful - and it's not even all the mitigation/protection SCH can land on a party.

.

Now, I get your critique - SGE is just being made closer to SCH. But as you note, this was because THE COMMUNITY was kicking SGE's out of parties. You can't blame the Devs for reacting to the community doing what it always does. Giving us example after example of "This is why we can't have nice things." If the community would get its collective head out of its collective tailpipe, a lot of nice things could actually be done. But here we are.

[Supersnow845]

I get that there are LOTS of valid criticisms in life and about the game...but when it comes down to it, there's a lot of melodrama and hyperbole. For example, this question is very easy to answer:

"What does SCH offer the party that doesn't just amount to "clunky SGE with a bit more damage"?

Well, first off, I find SGE to be the "clunky" one, but to each their own, that's subjective/stylistic/opinion. Let's talk concrete offerings:

Chain Strategem - Critical strike buff which boosts party damage (even WITH Jobs that auto crit, it still boosts the OVERALL party's damage for the other members)

Expedience - A quick movement buff which has already shown it's power to the point it had to be buffed to half-duration on the Sprint because it was borderline OP in encounters.

Remote healing - You hand-wave away "its totem healing", but that's actually a VERY powerful utility in a lot of encounters. You can't just ignore something like that because you want to.

Protraction buffed Deploy Critlo is STILL more powerful - and it's not even all the mitigation/protection SCH can land on a party.

.

Now, I get your critique - SGE is just being made closer to SCH. But as you note, this was because THE COMMUNITY was kicking SGE's out of parties. You can't blame the Devs for reacting to the community doing what it always does. Giving us example after example of "This is why we can't have nice things." If the community would get its collective head out of its collective tailpipe, a lot of nice things could actually be done. But here we are.

I mean my whole point is that the community is barring SGE because square decided to do this stupid healer split that amounts to absolutely nothing and then just continue to buff the shield healers without anyone stopping and going “hey have we ever considered that shield healers actually synergies well with each other”, sure the community shouldn’t bar SGE but it’s not like square hasn’t done everything to make them share a spot even when they 100% do not have to

And on the subject of SCH’s offerings, I didn’t wave away totem healing I said that’s it’s big advantage besides the slightly higher damage that chain offers, but it’s nothing like the difference in both utility and damage between two of any other role and is tiny compared to even the difference between the regen healers, I’ll give you expedience I did genuinely forgot about that but still, it doesn’t really amount to a whole lot considering these are supposed to be two completely different jobs; not two flavours of one shield healer

[EaMett]

SCH is by far clunkier than SGE, that's not stylistic.
Faerie still ghosts stuff.
Seraph not applying consolation is one extra ogcd you need to run in the middle of everything, it's a pretty empty ogcd slot that can be quite taxing if you're prepping for multi-layered heals.
Expedient can be a pain, often times the group doesn't want the sprint (or needs no sprint) but needs the mitigation and you end up having to time it awkwardly so the sprint falls off before people need to move. If it's not that, it still rears its ugly head if you ever have to flex your heals and change its placement, you gotta make a big deal of it over voice so people don't get surprised and touch walls.
Mobility is really bad and the job offers no upside for it (in optimized play).
The 1.5s cast removes any thought process on how to stack your ogcds and the job offers no compensatory mechanics in return (it isn't ideal but at least sage has you thinking about using toxicon properly to free phlegma for burst windows. Better than the nothing sch has).

SGE isn't ideal but in comparison, it doesn't suffer from any gameplay issues.

I went through DSR on both SCH and SGE and I honestly hated my life on SCH even though it was much more forgiving on mitigation.
With that said, SGE is fine in DSR but the lack of chain stratagem is the real issue. This has been my first expansion with my static no longer stacking crit buffs. Turns out crit variance is no joke and will ruin runs for no apparent reason. SCH offers much more consistency overall even though (imo) it plays like ass.

[Deceptus]

So as we know the most commonly accepted theory on why SGE this rather large buff to holos is because in DSR spreadlo provides such a greater degree of shielding capacity that PF has been restricting SGE, now with the buff on holos, holos+Zoe+eukrasian prognosis roughly equals spreadlo when only buffed with protraction.

So this may seem like a good thing, however without its ace in the hole (spreadlo) what does 5.0 SCH offer to the party that doesn’t just amount to “clunky SGE with a bit more damage” besides its totem healing: not much.

This bleeds into the idea that it’s obvious square doesn’t balance for double shields because this choice both makes that comp better and also assumes (mostly correctly) that SGE is being hard locked because SCH shares its position; a situation they themselves caused by introducing this regen healer split. Since all comps have to be able to clear and the healers have almost no variation in damage offers they are homogenised based on their healing capabilities, however all this does is just make them all feel the same.

So if square isn’t going to change their design philosophy over healer damage then why do they need to make all their healing exactly the same as well, SGE was introduced as a better mitigator worse shielder (debatable but has some merits as both expedient and SS have strings attached), why isn’t that being leant into to fix this gap (which doesn’t even need to exist because SCH/SGE can already clear totally fine without this stupid healer split) why is the answer to healers always (they need to be exactly the same

I've always been my opinion that Sage should have had shields with it's mitigation instead of regens. . . because. . . y'know, its a shield based healer.

It doesn't make sense to have a mitigation and a regen the pretty much wastes the first tick or two due to your timing on whether or not you barely got the ability off.

[Supersnow845]

I've always been my opinion that Sage should have had shields with it's mitigation instead of regens. . . because. . . y'know, its a shield based healer.

It doesn't make sense to have a mitigation and a regen the pretty much wastes the first tick or two due to your timing on whether or not you barely got the ability off.

That’s totally true but you do have to have some regen throughput otherwise you run into the noct AST problem in 1 healer content unless the shields are absolutely insane on all abilities

[NobleWinter]

That’s totally true but you do have to have some regen throughput otherwise you run into the noct AST problem in 1 healer content unless the shields are absolutely insane on all abilities

Pepsis with a shorter Cooldown could have been amazing on Sage if they played more into it. Let it convert Haima, Panhaima, and Holos into raw HP and that would be the throughout. You lose one layer of Shields from the multi shielding skills for more HP in a pinch.

[IllyaPrisma]

They absolutely do not account for SCH/SGE comps. They don't factor that possibility into their damage breakpoints. It is an increasingly viable healer pairing.

I personally believe one day soon, you will see the following in the patch notes:

"Kerachole: Damage reduction will no longer stack with Sacred Soil"

I predict this lazy change will be their only feasible solution to force healers into this horrendous regen/shield paradigm. Just look how well Main Tank/Off Tank worked for the tank category...

[Supersnow845]

They absolutely do not account for SCH/SGE comps. They don't factor that possibility into their damage breakpoints. It is an increasingly viable healer pairing.

I personally believe one day soon, you will see the following in the patch notes:

"Kerachole: Damage reduction will no longer stack with Sacred Soil"

I predict this lazy change will be their only feasible solution to force healers into this horrendous regen/shield paradigm. Just look how well Main Tank/Off Tank worked for the tank category...

The two shield healers having mitigation that doesn’t stack, especially the short term bubble mitigation is 100% a change I could see to reduce the effectiveness of the the double shield comp instead of actually doing anything to rebalance the mess that is the healers overall

[Rilifane]

The two shield healers having mitigation that doesn’t stack, especially the short term bubble mitigation is 100% a change I could see to reduce the effectiveness of the the double shield comp instead of actually doing anything to rebalance the mess that is the healers overall

But to be fair, SGE/ SCH would still work beautifully. With the goal of reducing AF heals in favour of ED and both still having several other skills that stack just fine, staggering Soil/ Kera isn't rocket science and they're still left with lots of free healing and mitigation/ shields. They still have Holos, Panhaima, Expedient, FE and Consolation on top of SGE spamming Kera even without coordinating. And Soil is still a strong heal if the extra potency is needed.
Not to mention double-buffed Spreadlo for downtimes or the really spicy hits.