Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Brinne]

Isn't it just so much easier to assume that there were genuine attempts to argue their case, and it didn't work out well, and we just didn't see those scenes? It's what we're supposed to accept happened.

I just feel it's better to take the writer's word that a thing happened than try to argue ten reasons why it actually played out differently.

If the story element in question leads to the extermination of an entire race of people, and is asking us to be sympathetic to that action and even agree with it, then no, actually, I think the responsible and ethical thing to do is interrogate it, not just simply accept it - just like when people bust out the predictable, tired rhetoric in real world situations about "having no choice," "it was for the greater good," and "we tried to reason with them, we swear" before enacting violence on innocent people.

[tokinokanatae]

Isn't it just so much easier to assume that there were genuine attempts to argue their case, and it didn't work out well, and we just didn't see those scenes? It's what we're supposed to accept happened.

The recent side story was a chance to show just that. I will readily admit that I doubt a retcon at this point would ever make me personally “like” Venat, but I think there are ways to have her fit more comfortably in the narrative—and part of that is expanding on the steps she took to attempt to save the world she lived in.

I was originally willing to take the scene at face value when the only thing we knew was that she Sundered the world—I’ve even talked about how terrifying it could have felt to her faction to face a (mildly) tempered Convocation and realize that they were no longer open to debate where Zodiark is concerned—but when taken in the whole of what we have and what the game refuses to clarify, all we’re left with is someone with proof of their argument that did not provide it. That’s frustrating when arguing about banalities, nevermind the course of the world.

[Iscah]

If the story element in question leads to the extermination of an entire race of people, and is asking us to be sympathetic to that action and even agree with it, then no, actually, I think the responsible and ethical thing to do is interrogate it, not just simply accept it - just like when people bust out the predictable, tired rhetoric in real world situations about "having no choice," "it was for the greater good," and "we tried to reason with them, we swear" before enacting violence on innocent people.

It's not even about agreeing with it.

It's "it happened, and for some reason the writers wanted to portray it as the only possible and/or reasonable course of action, so for my sanity and ongoing story enjoyment I'm going to accept that is the case even though I dislike it and think they should have written something else".

It doesn't seem like they're going to dwell on it further in the ongoing story, so I am hoping it's safe to basically ignore it and pretend something else happened.

[thegreatonemal]

"There was a raging fire, but we put it out. Now we can rebuild and restore things to where they used to be."
"No, I'm telling you, we're still doomed!"
"Why?"
"[RADIO SILENCE]"

"The stubborn fools wouldn't listen to me!"

Very reasonable and convincing!



I'm glad we just had an elaborate chapter of a raid story all about how the Ancients' lives were clearly completely free of hardship and suffering. I mean, grief over personal loss is clearly a completely alien concept to Themis, for example, and definitely not something he scolded Lahabrea for trying to deny his son the right to, and even called Lahabrea himself practically insane for ripping out of himself (before knowing the full circumstances.)

Nice try but we never got what the convocation responded with. All we know is that they did not listen.

[DPZ2]

Stage 3 is by far the best.
EW story and specifically the two flaws I outlined on previous page motivated me to write a very long-winded AU fanfic going all the way back to the end of Shadowbringers. I can have a timeline where ancients survive, Emet-Selch gets the justice he deserves and scions face actual suffering and death they can’t simply come back from.

So, basically "Dead Dove. Do Not Eat" is one of the major tags, right?

[Rulakir]

Going to add that Venat’s faction was also content with leaving the souls of those sacrificed to Zodiark trapped in purgatory indefinitely. All your loved ones? They can't even return to the star despite them being the reason anyone's even alive to protest.

That is a hard sell, especially with the limited information Venat provided her followers which amounted to little more than an ideology. We know theirs was a actual minority opinion even outside of the Convocation and probably for good reason because most people aren't okay abandoning their loved ones to a fate that was arguably worse than death. They would've needed something more than an ideology as a counter argument and they didn't have it.

[PawPaw]

Nice try but we never got what the convocation responded with. All we know is that they did not listen.

Listen. To. What?

If the Convocation told a bunch of people who know nothing but are vaguely waving their hands around and screaming "DOOOOOOM" to piss off, then it was completely understandable that they did so. They had actual, concrete issues to work through.

[Hurlstone]

We have people that shovel popcorn into their mouths to Phase 4 Marvel and Disney Star Wars and then we have YouTubers like Mauler blowing to shreds every movie they make for their completely incompetent writing. I'm personally someone who sides with the latter.

Fair enough! I am a Marvel fanatic so I personally am one of those with the popcorn enjoying them haha.

Everyone has their take. Just because there's all these echo chambers and whatever doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Having a decent level of personal level of competence will let you identity the wheat from the chaff. And for some people things they agree with are the wheat and things they don't are the chaff.

I agree that everyone, no matter where they fall on the field is entitled to say their piece no matter how personal or insignificant it is to the larger picture. Its one of the great things about debates relating to storytelling and lore, allowing others to consider viewpoints they did not see before… but I just find the discussion on who can judge what is good or bad writing much less black and white. The older I get, the more I see how impossible it is to separate ones biases and emotions from it. Places like this is where our emotional and already standing views come out to play the most. Neither side will really be launching their strikes from a blank canvas, and both will have those who believe they are coming from a base of more qualification or objectivity.

But this isn't a place where one side is right, there isn't a "total victory", it's just a place where people come to express themselves and dunk on other people in discussions and maybe rarely take something positive away from it.

True, in the end we are just a small group of lore fans who actually bother seeking places out to discuss lore. Its why I do slightly raise an eyebrow at the notion that this expansion is the deathcall/start of the end for the game. For some individual players sure, and I really hope that 7.0 is more to their taste, but I feel we are a long way from the depths of lore ignorance and self-sabotage.

I just wish there was a bit less of the dunking in these debates. Less declaration of opinion as fact, and not so much veiled personal stabs and accusations against ones way of thinking or interpreting themes. One is not wrong for dissagree with a stories direction or intended viewpoint and finding it thematicly ionconsistant, but at the same time accepting or enjoying such a story is not a sign that one is following heard mentality, lacks critical thinking or akin to a holocaust denier.

Convincing a single person or coming to an agreement is the only real win in this place. People constantly whining about who's saying what and still complaining about what are just wasting their breath lmao.

I think even getting people to acknowledge a different viewpoint should be seen as a win.

[Thenightvortex]

So, basically "Dead Dove. Do Not Eat" is one of the major tags, right?

Not a tag directly, but could apply, it’s a darkfic with a lot of emotional and physical suffering in it, but with a rather hope-filled ending planned. The premise being that Hades achieves a hollow victory in the end of 5.0, killing all the scions and WOL bar G’raha who he needed alive and Ryne who escaped, but failed to induce a calamity due to some last minute machinations on G’raha’s and WOL’s part, so it’s to be expected. All sides have it quite bad.

[Brightamethyst]

Going to add that Venat’s faction was also content with leaving the souls of those sacrificed to Zodiark trapped in purgatory indefinitely. All your loved ones? They can't even return to the star despite them being the reason anyone's even alive to protest.

We don't know that. We know what happened, but we don't know the exact scenario that lead to it or how everyone felt about it. I doubt anyone actually wanted to abandon those souls to Zodiark for eternity, but what was the better option?