Tales from the Dawn

[Lyth]

The Amaurotines were incapable of dealing with Meteion directly because of their aether, so that wasn't actually relevant to the discussion.

The question was, having summoned Zodiark and having averted the crisis for the time being, whether it was necessary to still keep sacrificing souls to Him in order to build their perfect paradise. Having already seen several tangible examples of societies that went that exact same route, they might as well have renamed Him Ra-la and be done with it.

[EaraGrace]

It's possible the writers did intend him to have been told about the dynamis problem, but that just takes us to back to what I've been saying since the first page: Why didn't they tell us, and thusly make him look like less of an fanatic? Why did they seem to go out of their way to avoid all of the potential writing decisions which could soften the group's actions, even by passing implication?

For some of those, it might just be that they realized the writing surrounding the Sundering scenario was basically held together with sticky tape, and that elaborating too much would just create more problems.

For some of those, it might just be that they realized the writing surrounding the Sundering scenario was basically held together with sticky tape, and that elaborating too much would just create more problems. But in this case, there would be literally no downside to making it clear that Hydaelyn's faction was in the know. Like you said, the Watcher had only a fragment of his original memories, so it wouldn't even have created a continuity problem. They would have come across as more reasonable at 0 cost to the broader narrative.

So why? The only answer I can reach is "because they don't think it's important". That they consider the pure ideological justification for the Sundering cause enough.

I think this is kind of a leap. The story was intended to expand on the original Watchers’ relationship with Venat. What we’re discussing is a minor part of the overall piece, being a compliment to a longer and more focused convo that happened in 5.2 which is what I’m referencing. That convo is what we should look towards, as well as the statements by the Watcher on the topic of Dynamis/Meteion. Those are good pieces of evidence that they did know, and lack an explanation (apologies if this is repeating myself but I think this is really important to my point) that fills the gaps if they didn’t.

And calling him a simp (I know you haven’t but others have) or a fanatic is a bit reductive no? He was obviously dedicated to Venat and loved her, but his love doesn’t make him anymore a fanatic than any other character whose wears their affections on their sleeve. They had in-depth conversations on these topics and the Watchers admiration for Venat was born from watching her journey. Someone can be dedicated and devoted with open eyes I think.

Personally I feel the writers were more interested in telling us of the Watcher and Venat, and not so focused on justifying an event that’s already been given a lot of breathing room. It’s the same for the Tales from the Shadows Ancient pieces, focus on the characters and their feelings with the big lore events happening as set pieces.

[RyuDragnier]

snip

With you mentioning it, I feel like the "living long enough" may be how the Ancients gained their powers as well. The longer the soul lingers, the more power it gains. This would explain why returning to the planet was kind of a big deal for them, it's basically voluntarily losing that power and starting from scratch.

[Lurina]

We aren't given a firm date or anything but I'd wager it was sooner, a week or two before effects were seen on the planet. She should have told more people, at least pull more people to her side instead of having the vast majority siding with the fourteen

That's definitely not right. Pandaemonium takes place some time after MSQ Elpis, and nothing has happened.

The Amaurotines were incapable of dealing with Meteion directly because of their aether, so that wasn't actually relevant to the discussion.

The question was, having summoned Zodiark and having averted the crisis for the time being, whether it was necessary to still keep sacrificing souls to Him in order to build their perfect paradise. Having already seen several tangible examples of societies that went that exact same route, they might as well have renamed Him Ra-la and be done with it.

You were arguing that the Dead Ends societies weren't supposed to be representative of any sort of objective predetermined fate in the other thread just two weeks ago.

The circumstances around why the civilization of the Plenty ended are open to interpretation. Was it the ennui of the lives that they created for themselves? Was it the fact that eliminating interpersonal conflict comes at the cost of individuality and diversity? That the first external entity (Meteion) that their civilization encountered raised an existential crisis that their singular hivemind couldn't handle? Either way, the exact mechanism is left to you, the player, to interpret.

You can't just change your opinions based on whatever you're trying to assert at the time.

And calling him a simp (I know you haven’t but others have) or a fanatic is a bit reductive no?

You've misunderstood what I mean by fanatic. I mean an ideologue. Someone who will take extreme and violent actions not for a concrete material aim, but to impose their ideology for its own sake. My point is that this is a much more difficult position to sympathize with, and they've done nothing to deter this interpretation of his character.

Anyway, I take your point about it not really being relevant to the short story, but I still think they would have mentioned or alluded to him knowing about the dynamis stuff if he did. especially since they already devote a couple paragraphs to explaining the situation and the Hydaelyn faction's motive and, well, don't. For months people have been asserting that of course Venat told her followers everything, and we now have explicit confirmation that isn't true, it's hard to keep taking what seems like the more sensible reading of the story as a given.

Like, I wouldn't be surprised if they straight-up didn't even know what the final scenario was going to be when they wrote that Anemensis dialogue. Hell, it increasingly seems like they still don't.

[Lyth]

Not really sure what you're on about. It's beyond folly to repeat the exact same mistake that you've seen someone else make, regardless of mechanism.

[Lurina]

Not really sure what you're on about. It's beyond folly to repeat the exact same mistake that you've seen someone else make, regardless of mechanism.

???? If what actually doomed a group of people is "open to interpretation", how can you lean anything from their mistakes? By definition, the mistakes are subjective.

[Lyth]

Witnessing their entire planet die out is hardly subjective.

[Lurina]

Witnessing their entire planet die out is hardly subjective.

But the mistakes leading to that are, according to you.

"The circumstances around why the civilization of the Plenty ended are open to interpretation"

"The civilization of the Plenty ended due to this specific mistake that needed to be learned from"

These are two polarized assertions. The game is either saying something or it isn't.

[Lyth]

You don't need to know the exact specifics of why a trip wire trap killed someone. Was it poison? Was it spikes? Maybe just don't step on it, eh?

[Lurina]

You don't need to know the exact specifics of why a trip wire trap killed someone. Was it poison? Was it spikes? Maybe just don't step on it, eh?

Two of the examples you listed as potential reasons for the Plenty's fate (eliminating diversity and interpersonal conflict, existential crisis due to contact with Meteion) have nothing to do with the idea of chasing perfection at the expense of all else, and so are not analogues for the Zodiark situation. It's less like a wire trap with 3 possible ways to kill you and more like a spot you're considering standing on with a 1/X chance of containing a wire trap.

You can't simultaneously act like the Zodiark summoning was a sure path to Plenty-style doom ("they might as well have renamed Him Ra-la and be done with it") while also asserting it's possible following that path had nothing to do with it.