Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Hurlstone]

Now that the honeymoon period is over, I'd like to say that Endwalker's ending sucked and just flat-out ruined what could have been a great story.

A spoiled brat with, daddy issues, destroyed an entire civilization because life is so "mean". What an awful ending. Also, you don't just introduce new characters that late in the saga. Just terrible storytelling.

"Oh no, someone dares to criticize FFXIV!? quick, get the noose!!!" <--is what I expect from the loud minority here who rejects any real form of feedback because "feelings" but, this needs to be said and facts are facts and that's that.

TL;DR: Endwalker ending was terrible.

Oh, hello Ben Shapiro! I did not know you played FFXIV.

Anyway, its a hard dissagree from me. I loved the story and characters. It was not perfect, and I still hold Shadowbringers as by far the best expansion (And one of the best FF games of all time) but I really liked what they did with the likes of Hydaelyn and how they wrapped up the overall arc. Others will feel diffidently, and honestly it feels like the vocal members of this forum do swing more in your opinion then mine, but thats good. Would be boring if we all liked the same thing. But perhaps tone down on the 'I am right and you are wrong' retoric? We can be better then that.

[KariTheFox]

Wait, who's the spoiled brat with daddy issues meant to be? I guess that kinda describes Zenos, but he's not really the principal mover of the story.

Hermes/Fandaniel? I never really saw him as 'spoiled', since he was a dilligent worker and the only 'Daddy' in his lives was Xande.

[Rulakir]

The ending wasn't even the worst part.

[PawPaw]

I will agree that the story was terrible for me. Prior to the events in Elpis, I was enjoying myself just fine! Elpis and everything that happened after ruined the entire story from ARR up until that point. It was as though they took the legacy and the brilliance of ShB and said internally "let's see how badly we can walk this back and destroy what we've built here". The retconning of Lore, introducing ideas that lack basic logic, the suffering fetish, contradictions and plot holes so big that they wouldn't be out of place on the surface of the moon...it was bad.

There are still things that I enjoyed during my playthrough, and I don't hate the game, but EW has done significant damage to the story of this world and I'm finding it hard to care anymore; as the story was the main thing that kept me coming back and invested.

Shouldn't need to say this but this is my opinion.

[AwesomeJr44]

Oh look, another thread that is spewing opinions like it's a fact.

Oh god no! Someone stated an opinion and didn't clarify that it wasn't a fact! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!!

Huh? The world hasn't ended? Weird...

[Vyrerus]

As off kilter as the lore forum has gotten in the last year, this sort of thread belongs in General Discussion.

[Thenightvortex]

I loved Endwalker for a short period of time after playing it first time as much as to not be sure whether I like it or Shadowbringers more.
However, some parts of it just didn’t stand the test of time like Shadowbringers did. I don’t dislike it as an end to the saga, but I have two quarrels that fit with what people on the forum here argue.

The one that I hated straight away was the Ultima Thule story up until the last few quests. Scions dying and returning felt awfully cheap, since you know that this is how it will end from the get go. Call me heartless or sociopath or whatever, but I legit giggled when G’raha said his goodbye. “Oh, no, a third time and another promise to a guy who will return in a few quests, such tragedy, boo hoo”…Thankfully, the amazing dungeon and Zenos at the end allowed my last impression to be a positive one.

The second one is of course, Venat. When I first saw the sundering my reaction was “meh that’s kind of messed up, but at least she is not as insane as that maniac Hermes” and piled her up in the same category as the unsundered(doing something morally horrible with ultimately noble goals in mind). I still stand by it, it has a lot to do with me liking the villains much more than many heroes in this story and many others. Yeah it’s edgy or whatever, but they’re just cool, even Zenos. I don’t see much point in frowning at Emet’s actions for instance, cause we all know that destroying 8 inhabitable planets is bad morally, doesn’t mean we can’t analyze his actions and enjoy him as a character, maybe even put ourselves in his shoes.

The moment when I really started to delve deep into this was after the QnA that explained how the unsundered came to be. Venat intentionally left a crack for a lone man to suffer for 12000 years, going completely mad and then die anyway, with the same extending to Elidibus and Lahabrea by the force of accident. That’s really messed up…I went through the whole process once again, and just couldn’t relate to her on the same level I related with Emet. Why wouldn’t she tell them? I still don’t see a single conceivable reason for her to withhold it, and all that have been put forward in game, in that weird simpish short story or on the forum just fall flat. Her actions are not given enough scrutiny and they absolutely should. In fact, her actions seem to directly contradict that of out heroes. G’raha went back in time to avert the calamity, extreme measures because he would not accept that their world has been doomed. He was ready to wait a century and then perish to give others a future they were robbed of. That is inspiring. What Venat did is the opposite, just surrendering and going along with the flow. Some might say that she tried to reason that with Amaurotines beforehand and this is probably true, but she still hasn’t told them the truth, and that is enough of an indication that this is not enough.

On another note, I have spent the last few weeks reading up on this debate. Going through topics such as “On Venat’s role in the story”, “Would it be better to side with Emet Selch” and “Who knew that Omega’s quest…” has been immensely entertaining and and insightful at times, so thank you all for giving me something fun to read, this forum is great and can actually allow some arguments about the game’s story rather than just praise.

[Brightamethyst]

If I was in charge of the story:

In 5.3 one of the major gimmicks of the Elidibus fight is that he limit breaks us and we tank limit to block it. The resident magic nerds, G'raha and or Y'shtola, see this and go, "WTF was that? That wasn't aether." This leads them to start researching and in 5.4/5.5 find evidence of another power source fueled by emotion (point to BRD/DNC/WAR/whatever.) That way when we see the flower, and akasa and dyanmis are introduced by name, the idea has already been floating around the back of our minds for a while. It becomes an "ooooooh, now I get it" moment rather than a "WTF is this BS?" moment.

The one that I hated straight away was the Ultima Thule story up until the last few quests. Scions dying and returning felt awfully cheap, since you know that this is how it will end from the get go. Call me heartless or sociopath or whatever, but I legit giggled when G’raha said his goodbye. “Oh, no, a third time and another promise to a guy who will return in a few quests, such tragedy, boo hoo”…

Right? It was so incredibly obvious that everything was leading up to the scions making a dramatic return that the character deaths felt almost comical rather than sad and/or inspiring. Especially toward the end when it was like, "bye Alisaie, see you in 5 minutes."

Thankfully, the amazing dungeon and Zenos at the end allowed my last impression to be a positive one.

Personally I hated that they made Zenos the finale. He won, and we let him. After everything he did and everything we went through, at the very last second the WoL caved and handed Zenos everything he wanted on a silver platter. Where was my "no, I won't give you the satisfaction" option? Even if it just made him fly into a rage and attack us, forcing the fight anyway, I would have felt better knowing it was on him, not us. That he had to force the issue because we wouldn't give in. They whole finale just left a really bad taste in my mouth.

[Cleretic]

Wait, who's the spoiled brat with daddy issues meant to be? I guess that kinda describes Zenos, but he's not really the principal mover of the story.

Hermes/Fandaniel? I never really saw him as 'spoiled', since he was a dilligent worker and the only 'Daddy' in his lives was Xande.

I think they're talking about Meteion, and getting... basically every single detail wrong? I don't know, but it also doesn't matter because it's an opinion too brokeass to be worth examining.

I don't think Endwalker is perfect--I'd probably put it at a 7/10, hardly a failing grade--but it's flawed in far more interesting ways than if it completely stuck the landing for me. I don't think a whole lot about stories that I consider perfect for their intention after finishing them, but something that's almost there is really fun to prod at and ask 'how would I change this, and would that actually improve this or have I produced something worse but more to my tastes'.

These days the changes I've landed at are pretty minor; I'm hardly going to slander characters I don't like or warp the game's setting and themes to put a self-insert into power. But I do think they'd make things much nicer to me. It basically comes down to two things:
1. Lop off everything about Elpis before Meteion's freakout. While in the past I've thought just making Elpis an Echo flashback would be best, I think doing that would create more problems than it solves, and I'm not so spiteful as to completely remove the presence of characters people like. However, while I can respect the concept of falling action after a huge moment, and the Loporrits generally fill that role quite well after the raw WEIGHT of Garlemald and Zodiark, turning up to the idyllic Elpis after Thavnair's revisit isn't 'falling action' so much as 'action fell off a cliff'; it would rather suit to turn up in Elpis during a minor crisis that escalates rather than 'time to meet a bunch of cuties in paradise'. This would free up a lot of quests, so let's allocate them to Garlemald so that they get some space to talk about the remnants of the slave class (while it's clear Garlemald had a lot of ideas it didn't do, the slave class getting a single quest in the MSQ is the biggest stumble). If there's any spare reel after that, let's flesh out Ultima Thule.

2. The Illuminati attack during the Labyrinthos revisit. While there's great scenes in the Labyrinthos revisit (if your theoretical Endwalker rewrite skips Moenbryda's parents, your rewrite has failed), it's overall a lot of story space without a lot of action, so it feels like you're milling about a lot. It doesn't need a huge ticking clock or raising of stakes, but it does need something more happening; essentially, it needs a Team Rocket sort of presence to increase pressure while still letting the story continue. The Illuminati don't really come up elsewhere in Endwalker, so let's take advantage of them being free to have them turn up to steal spaceship parts or something; being a group with a strong technical aptitude, they're well-suited to turning up the heat in Labyrinthos without being a complete sideshow. My dream version of this would include Quickthinx in the Aitiascope, but making that work would require making Alexander compulsory, and that seems a bad idea.

Considering my rewrite of Shadowbringers to my tastes would include 'lop off the most popular zone', and I wouldn't even know where to start with Stormblood, Endwalker being pretty close is both testament to its strengths and that the flaws are not apocalyptic. Landing that goddamn ship at all is no mean feat, let's not be too angry that there was some turbulence.

EDIT: Oh, and let us walk away from the Zenos fight like he says we can. While I think the Zenos conclusion generally falls into the basket of 'I didn't think you should've written this but you've proven it was worth doing', it would've been satisfying in its own way to have us be able to not do that, and to see Zenos actually come to terms with the fact we might not be that kind of Fight Idiot. ...also I feel like I'm not the only person that turned up to that fight at four in the goddamn morning because they expected the final trial to be the end, and a compulsory fight after that makes for a weird state of 'do I do it now when the moment feels right but I'm tired, or leave it until tomorrow for an awkwardly-placed end'.

[Thenightvortex]

If I was in charge of the story:

In 5.3 one of the major gimmicks of the Elidibus fight is that he limit breaks us and we tank limit to block it. The resident magic nerds, G'raha and or Y'shtola, see this and go, "WTF was that? That wasn't aether." This leads them to start researching and in 5.4/5.5 find evidence of another power source fueled by emotion (point to BRD/DNC/WAR/whatever.) That way when we see the flower, and akasa and dyanmis are introduced by name, the idea has already been floating around the back of our minds for a while. It becomes an "ooooooh, now I get it" moment rather than a "WTF is this BS?" moment.





Right? It was so incredibly obvious that everything was leading up to the scions making a dramatic return that the character deaths felt almost comical rather than sad and/or inspiring. Especially toward the end when it was like, "bye Alisaie, see you in 5 minutes."




Personally I hated that they made Zenos the finale. He won, and we let him. After everything he did and everything we went through, at the very last second the WoL caved and handed Zenos everything he wanted on a silver platter. Where was my "no, I won't give you the satisfaction" option? Even if it just made him fly into a rage and attack us, forcing the fight anyway, I would have felt better knowing it was on him, not us. That he had to force the issue because we wouldn't give in. They whole finale just left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Yeah, agreed on the scions, they desperately wanted some emotional reaction from the player but it just felt flat. Even with the scions I liked they couldn’t force me to care. I would have much preferred to have a single, but real and impactful death(probably having it be Urianger, Thancred or Y’shtola would make most sense, they are the old guard after all)rather than this clownery.

As for Zenos, I understand where you’re coming from, the way this final lands is dependent of how each individual player feels about Zenos. I liked him and giving him the opportunity to fulfill his desire while indulging myself at the end of the universe was one of the most cathartic moments in the game. It was such a perfect finale for Zenos and I really hope they would never bring him back and tarnish this image.

This game has never given players any substantial choice, the WOL is a written character who you can put flavor on. It makes the role playing aspect bland and I complained about many pointless dialogue options before. This game just doesn’t allow any major deviations, so it’s easier to disconnect yourself from the WOl. That’s the reason I don’t feel particularly mad about my character aiding Venat or something, I never really saw him as someone I have much influence over.

Granted, I think the dialogue options they gave with Zenos is one of the better ones. All have a unique response and each paints your WOL in a different light. The closest you can come to not indulging Zenos is picking option 2. It basically implies that your WOL doesn’t care for Zenos but will strike him down so he would not return to the source and harm their friends. Zenos may say that the WOL betrays their deception and stuff, but this is a biased view of a man who wishes to see the protagonist a certain way, I wouldn’t trust him on this one. It would be good to have an option that directly says “no” instead of “think what you will”, though.