Why in the world did they change Jump > Mirage Dive?

[Aco505]

I would love to see your math on this between the different jobs.

By all means.

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

[zeth07]

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

I see. Some seem skewed in terms of practicality and missing jobs, but you would also have to consider the actual button presses the jobs have to do within a given time.

Also all that aside, just because other jobs potentially have more buttons doesn't mean DRG shouldn't have the buttons cutdown where available when it actually makes sense.

I don't know if I posted it on here in a different post so I won't get too into it but the days of ARR are gone, the game in itself is more complicated and the jobs have layers built into them for their identity, so removing "needless" extra buttons isn't going to somehow hurt the jobs. The people complaining about Samurai's Kaiten are weird to me, unless they are the same people who liked spamming Dark Arts on Dark Knight back in the day.

I feel the same way about positionals which is a whole other discussion. The game isn't going to magically become boring if you have to press less "individual" buttons or not have to move 1cm to the left or right or pop True North(defeating the purpose anyway). Most action games do not have you pressing 30+ "different" buttons and people sure still seem to find them fun myself included.

The idea that Jump becoming Mirage Dive is somehow a problem, which was already addressed, just seems like the most rudimentary complaint to go back on.

The actual "problem" which is probably more philosophical is that some people DO want more complicated jobs and some others DON'T. As someone who played fighting games this is very apparent. The issue rises when people might like a design but hate how the job plays.

So when the developers make a decision to streamline jobs, some people get mad, but now that potentially lets more people enjoy the jobs based on job identity instead of some intrinsic buttons to press quota or APM. Which is basically an unsolvable problem since you can't make everyone happy.

So again going back to the point, they made a change after Endwalker presumably because of "Player Feedback", who knows, but then revert the change also because of "Player Feedback". THAT is confusing. I think the excuse given is insufficient and unaccountable given the nature of public opinion.

[Aco505]

Also all that aside, just because other jobs potentially have more buttons doesn't mean DRG shouldn't have the buttons cutdown where available when it actually makes sense.

DRG has no buttons to remove at the moment because everything has a clear purpose, and the only difference between ST and AoE is the weaponskill string employed. Depending on what they add in 7.0, this could change, but right now it's not the case.

The jobs that are bloated are mostly those that have many actions used exclusively in AoE. RPR, for instance, is ironically in this situation despite the fact that many of its actions change to others, and this'll become more apparent if they give it more actions to bind in the next expansion.

The main "issue" DRG has right now is that Battle Litany lasts 15s, which can make it tight to fit everything into buffs. This wasn't a problem in ShB precisely because it lasted 20s.

removing "needless" extra buttons isn't going to somehow hurt the jobs.

I feel the same way about positionals which is a whole other discussion.

The actual "problem" which is probably more philosophical is that some people DO want more complicated jobs and some others DON'T

Most content (including extreme trials and sometimes even savage) can be cleared without having an ideal understanding or performance of a job. Therefore, removing complexity from jobs can hurt them by denying the possibility of having a high skill ceiling. A middle ground has to be found without hurting the skill ceiling. You can lower a job's skill floor while raising the ceiling to make it appealing to different kinds of players.

Jobs are getting both their floor and ceiling lowered time and again, and that's a problem, especially when there's only one job in the game that for some reason doesn't seem to suffer from that.

Positionals also add a layer of complexity to jobs. Saying that True North "defeats the purpose" means not understanding positionals in high level content. You will miss many positionals if you just use TN indiscriminately, especially on DRG due to it being the most positional intensive job. When you play DRG, you have to greed positionals as much as you can to make sure you have TN charges for when it's impossible to do so due to boss mechanics.

So removing this layer of complexity would be a mistake unless something else was put in its place, and even then, you can miss all your positionals and still clear most content, as stated before. Not knowing how to deal with positionals doesn't really hurt casual players in any way.

when the developers make a decision to streamline jobs, some people get mad, but now that potentially lets more people enjoy the jobs based on job identity

I personally like the current SMN, but the complaints about it being a job that feels like it's playing as a level 60 or 70 one at maximum level are absolutely legit. The job does feel skeletal, even if it's good thematically. A middle ground has to be reached because, again, most content can be cleared no matter what, so making jobs more complex or interesting to master at higher levels isn't going to affect lower levels in any way.

they made a change after Endwalker presumably because of "Player Feedback", who knows, but then revert the change also because of "Player Feedback"

AFAIK, the initial change had nothing to do with player feedback. The revert did: there were complaints in the English forums, but especially way more in the Japanese ones.

[Llethander]

My only complaint is the fact that there was no mention or indication of the button separation in game.

We don't all read the patch notes. I only found out today that I had a new skill to slot onto my bars, I was crazy confused as to why I wasn't generating eyes and why HJ wasn't "properly" turning into a second skill like it had since I picked up DRG and unlocked the Eye mechanic.

[Tarrick]

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

Just counting raw numbers of total abilities is completely meaningless. Even looking at that thread, you can see the person making the claim is counting extremely unimportant abilities. When someone is talking about button bloat, Leg Sweep is simply not equivalent to True Thrust or anything along those lines. You can have an extra 20 buttons placed in random locations around your screen and it doesn't matter in the least if they never need to be pressed.

If you look at actual parse data, DRG is generally at the top of the CPM list along with GNB. NIN, and to a lesser extent BRD, is usually above those but their CPM is inflated with shortened, repeated GCD abilities and high haste making them hard to compare to other jobs. If you actually play DRG you'll know that their ability usage is spread out greatly among the abilities that DRG has. That is to say, they do not have any abilities that simply get repeated very quickly to fill up the rotation. The real analysis, then, would be to look at the buttons that each job would ideally press in a 1-minute period and count the number of unique abilities. Given the high CPM of the job with the less frequent repeated usage of the abilities, I'm confident that DRG would be near, if not at, the very top of that list, marking them as having the highest actual button bloat.

[Aco505]

I'm confident that DRG would be near, if not at, the very top of that list, marking them as having the highest actual button bloat.

You're talking about action bloat, not button bloat. Button bloat is the number of actions to bind, action bloat is related to apm (actions per minute).

Apart from the weaponskill string, the buttons DRG presses the most are going to be NAS (3 per minute), GSK/HJ/MD (2 per minute), and WWT (2.4 per minute in full uptime).

What the developers want to change about the job is the amount of actions pressed during the 2-min burst but compared to ShB this mostly equals to 2-3 more actions: one Spineshatter Dive, one Wyrmwind Thrust, and one Life Surge (this is not always available in all 2-min bursts).

Finally, a job having higher apm than other jobs doesn't need to be a bad thing (see NIN, DRK, GNB, etc.), especially when there are plenty of jobs to choose from. There's a playstyle for every kind of player.

[Quyn]

You're talking about action bloat, not button bloat. Button bloat is the number of actions to bind, action bloat is related to apm (actions per minute).

Apart from the weaponskill string, the buttons DRG presses the most are going to be NAS (3 per minute), GSK/HJ/MD (2 per minute), and WWT (2.4 per minute in full uptime).

What the developers want to change about the job is the amount of actions pressed during the 2-min burst but compared to ShB this mostly equals to 2-3 more actions: one Spineshatter Dive, one Wyrmwind Thrust, and one Life Surge (this is not always available in all 2-min bursts).

Finally, a job having higher apm than other jobs doesn't need to be a bad thing (see NIN, DRK, GNB, etc.), especially when there are plenty of jobs to choose from. There's a playstyle for every kind of player.

I am of the impression that he is referring to unique apm, rather than simple action bloat.
E.g., there is a large difference between having to press one ogcd, ten times a minute or ten different ogcds, each once in that minute.
The apm would be identical but the effort of reaching different keys, wouldn't.

That is also what I was comparing between DRG and nin. Both have similar apm, yet DRG has those actions spread between more keys to track and press.
Finally, life surge and lance charge are missing on your list of DRG buttons pressed per minute.

[Aco505]

there is a large difference between having to press one ogcd, ten times a minute or ten different ogcds, each once in that minute.
The apm would be identical but the effort of reaching different keys, wouldn't.

That is also what I was comparing between DRG and nin. Both have similar apm, yet DRG has those actions spread between more keys to track and press.

In a 2-min burst, you'll press most of these after using your buffs as DRG: GSK/NAS, HJ, MD, DFD, SSD, WWT, STD, LS. That's 8 buttons

As a NIN, in a burst with Bunshin ready, you'll press after using your debuffs: Mudras of any combination (Hyosho, Raitons...), DWD, TCJ, Meisui, Bahavakacra, Raijus (there are cases in which you might want to use Forked Raiju, so that's an extra button to consider), Phantom Kamaitachi. That's 7-8 buttons.

The button number is mostly similar. I haven't included DRG's GCDs because they're always the same and fully fixed, and because the job is mainly oGCD centered. The amount of unique button presses is not very different from one job to the other and DRG's main rule is to just use everything on hard cooldown, especially GSK/HJ. There's no "thought" behind the job's GCDs besides Life Surge and not overcapping WWT, so again I fail to see the action bloat issue. The only "problem" DRG has in relation to "stress" during bursts is that Litany lasts 15s instead of 20s, and they gave us 2-3 more presses in 2-min bursts.

GNB and especially DRK feel way more stressful to me during their 2-min. GNB is closer to DRG in that sense because it has stuff to do between bursts, whereas DRK is mostly a 1-2-3 spam till the next 2-min with some action in the 1-min. Of course this is simplifying other aspects like getting a TBN proc and holding 9k mana for bursts, but the point is that DRG is more than adequate during and between bursts and is in line with how other "busy" jobs operate.

Finally, life surge and lance charge are missing on your list of DRG buttons pressed per minute.

Lance Charge is a buff you press once a minute like every other. Life Surge is mostly used once per minute, with some cases being twice. It is also an ability that is often not used during intense moments because it shows up either before or at the end of 2-min burst (with some exceptions) or mostly during 1-min bursts, which are lax.