the normal content is too easy

[Packetdancer]

You have it backwards. Part of the fun in re-running MMO dungeons comes from knowing all the little routing and pulling tricks and being able to show off your skills. You make a video game dungeon so people can discern which parts are necessary and find the route through. That is not a flaw of the content, that is the intent. Puzzles are not worthless for having solutions!

That is definitely part of the appeal of repeating content for many people, in many games! However, many dev teams will see a difference between "Look at how quickly I've got this down to run it after all my practice!" (e.g., speed-running, which you reference) and people trying to do things in the fastest way possible the first time through.

(Source: Used to work at a game company professionally.)

After all, even if you get the newbie message at the beginning of an ARR dungeon, I rarely ever see people interested/willing in going down those side pathways for the sake of the newbie.

"But people will be rude to new players who don't know the routes!"

Just like how they're rude to new players who want to watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons? No, they aren't, because the community and moderators already come down hard on jerks who ruin the new player experience.

While I'm inclined to agree that it is not the majority of the community, demonstrably there is a subset of players who in fact would do precisely that; the fact that folks would not let first-timers watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons is literally why the cutscenes in the Praetorium were made unskippable.

I will also point out that threads semi-frequently crop up here on the forums justifying why it's okay to force people—even first-timers—to speed-run a dungeon because "I just want to get my dailies over with" and "Big pulls are the only way to make a dungeon a little interesting." (I don't entirely disagree with the second statement, mind you, but still.)

Again: I do not think this is the majority of the community, but it definitely is a sentiment out there.

[vetch]

That is definitely part of the appeal of repeating content for many people, in many games! However, many dev teams will see a difference between "Look at how quickly I've got this down to run it after all my practice!" (e.g., speed-running, which you reference) and people trying to do things in the fastest way possible the first time through.

(Source: Used to work at a game company professionally.)

After all, even if you get the newbie message at the beginning of an ARR dungeon, I rarely ever see people interested/willing in going down those side pathways for the sake of the newbie.

You're ignoring half my argument. I specifically said side paths need to have rewards to encourage players to take them. A lore note can be important to a small subset of players, I do like reading them, but it's not a reward for 95% of us, not even the first time through. If you put quest objectives down them, or a chance at a cosmetic with no other source, or give extra daily rewards for clearing a mini-boss, more veterans will take an interest.

While I'm inclined to agree that it is not the majority of the community, demonstrably there is a subset of players who in fact would do precisely that; the fact that folks would not let first-timers watch the long story cutscenes in ARR dungeons is literally why the cutscenes in the Praetorium were made unskippable.

Four years ago. Yet, the extremely long cutscenes in Stone Vigil, Toto-Rak, Ifrit Normal, etc. were not made unskippable and yet I've gotten them in roulettes over and over for almost two years of playing and not seen people hassling the new players for watching them. Game moderation and community policing (informed by the moderation) have served for that, so let's not you and I pretend that there's no other way to handle jerks than to core out the game design.

[ForteNightshade]

I wish they would undo whatever they did in the past year that made all legacy content complete faceroll. They must have done some sort of stat adjustment for EW that made most content prior to the current expansion a complete joke. Dungeons for example, are like night and day compared to just last summer. Quite simply, everything does far less damage, and dies much faster. If I didn't know better I'd say they completely broke lower level scaling.

It's a combination of job changes, the stat squish and likely some stealth nerfs that have entirely neutered content. The devs solution to catching players up to endgame seems to be making everything braindead easy until Shadowbringers. Not that it gets harder per se, just less droll on your keyboard levels. Sadly, it's made all that old content a complete slog now. It just... falls over.

[Payadopa]

For all we sometimes seem to want to claim job design getting more streamlined and dungeon design turning linear is the result of the devs trying to make the game easier, I don't think that's true... or at least, it's not the only factor.

As I've pointed out before, how often does anyone take alternate paths in any ARR dungeon that has side areas? How often does anyone bother with the puzzles in Qarn? Even in 1.x, there were people who posted the "optimal" path through Toto-Rak to hit all three diremites. We've demonstrated that no matter what they give us as a dungeon, we will optimize it down to the shortest path possible to get rewards, and then run that path as fast as we can, pulling everything until the dungeon forces us to stop.

And that is not on the "casuals", that is on those of us who do higher-end content. Most "casual" players I encounter would be happy to do the puzzles in Qarn or wander into side hallways, because they're not the ones trying to speed-run the dungeons. You want the devs to cater to us? They did; I would lay solid odds that's a big part of why more recent dungeons are now pre-optimized into linear hallways for us.

Similarly, look at AST. We like to complain that the card system is bland now... but if you go back on these very forums to Stormblood era threads, you can see people complaining how only the Balance is worth playing, and discussing how to optimize with that in mind. If you want a reason the devs made all the cards variations on the Balance, I think that's the smoking gun... and again, that wasn't "casuals" that caused that; folks who play more casually probably didn't care about optimizing the cards.

You can argue that the normal content is too streamlined and easy, but I don't think you can lay the blame for that solely at the feet of "casual" players; regardless of what we claim we want, the optimization habits of the more "serious" players bear some share of the blame.

Making the dungeons more solo friendly with Trusts may make the MSQ more approachable, but it also means the "casual" players are free to engage with the content in a more relaxed manner; they can wander into the side passages in ARR dungeons, they can stop and read the horrifying notes in Toto-Rak, or the hilarious books in Gubal, or the research notes in Ktisis Hyperborea.

Which, let's be honest, many people are seemingly impatient with... and the impatient folks are not usually from the "casual" side of the playerbase.

It's both. Making everything accessible at all costs and the small rest must be balanced into the ground because 'mah numberz'. For the latter look no further than the PvP complaints. lol

Anyway, I'm happy we finally get 4 man content that looks like it's an actual challenge. PotD only lasts so long (and the lower floors are still boring).

[Darthgummibear]

It's a combination of job changes, the stat squish and likely some stealth nerfs that have entirely neutered content. The devs solution to catching players up to endgame seems to be making everything braindead easy until Shadowbringers. Not that it gets harder per se, just less droll on your keyboard levels. Sadly, it's made all that old content a complete slog now. It just... falls over.

It honestly worries me because it feels like they are gradually taking the game's greatest strengths and throwing them out the window.

[Hurlstone]

I disagree that the content of the game is 'to easy' as difficulty is subjective and not every player should have to play for challenge, but I do think it would be cool if more harder solo optional challenges where added. I have always liked the idea of a 'Hardcore' New Game+ where we could tackle the MSQ under more difficult circumstance, perhaps to get some nice cosmetic rewards from it.

[Darthgummibear]

I disagree that the content of the game is 'to easy' as difficulty is subjective and not every player should have to play for challenge, but I do think it would be cool if more harder solo optional challenges where added. I have always liked the idea of a 'Hardcore' New Game+ where we could tackle the MSQ under more difficult circumstance, perhaps to get some nice cosmetic rewards from it.

This would be pretty awesome.

[Bobby66]

I do hope the newer difficultly tier of 4 man content SE goes balls to the wall with affixes.

Job balance for dungeons will also be interesting, cause depending on what they do or aet of challenges offers we could see a sustain, are etc . . . Meta or comps come forth.

[RocciaSolida]

They have this thought process purely because the content never challenges them! And get a grip a instance taking 5 min longer doesn’t make it “harder”

It'd be very optimistic to think that raising the bar would compel people to play better. The only result you'd get would be players raging on the OF, Reddit and whatnot because the content suddenly got harder (or too hard even)

[Supersnow845]

It'd be very optimistic to think that raising the bar would compel people to play better. The only result you'd get would be players raging on the OF, Reddit and whatnot because the content suddenly got harder (or too hard even)

As opposed to the content becoming easier and people still complaining, like that person on reddit yesterday who was trying to argue square designed crystal tower to ilvl decay and it would be too hard and unfair to bring it back in line with how it played in ARR despite the fact that jobs also got easier in that time