Summoner changes that should happen onto 7.0

[Axxion]

And instead we got the worst class since the great healer lobotomy of 5.0, this alternative is nothing to be happy about, it plays like a level 60 class and removed a niche that old SMN and SCH both occupied that they removed from both of them

And that still doesn’t change that classes are designed for savage and that is how it’s always been

worst class? you mean the best class based of how many times i see people in dungeons run it and with no statistic to back this statement, only from what i seen /s

[Deveryn]

And that still doesn’t change that classes are designed for savage and that is how it’s always been

I wasn't disagreeing with this.

[fulminating]

I don't know why there's such a visceral reaction to using the savage raid job distribution, it is a pretty reasonable crosssection of the playerbase - unless you have reason to believe that for whatever reason summoner would be underrepresented there?

What good is that if the class is broken in the areas leading up to that point?

They don't seem to mind that you have been able to one-man current dungeons (now featuring the first two normal raids) on warrior for the last two expansions. It took since 3.0 to fix living dead to usable in dungeons, dark knight still has by far the weakest sustain, the newest job reaper has absolutely nothing to do in the most common content for casual players (crystal tower and msq roulette). Dungeons do not seem to be focused on when jobs are being balanced, although with the addition of criterion dungeons that may well change.

[Kaedys]

Do you actually have some numbers to show SMN has become more popular?

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/44 - #1 job for parses across savage, 13.1% of all DPS parses
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/38#region=1 - 6th most popular DPS job, 10.5% of all DPS parses (and remember, there's 1 more DPS job to consume percentage in EW than in ShB)

We can also take a look at more casual content:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/47 - #1 for number of parses across Aglaia, 14.0% of all DPS parses.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/40 - 7th for number of parses across Paradigm's Breach, 8.7% of all DPS parses.

So ya, statistically they are distinctly more popular than they were, especially in more casual content (which was, iirc, explicitly the intent, part of why they redesigned it was specifically because of the rotational complexity).

[Shiroe]

On the other hand literally the only advantage of current SMN is that it is absolutely cracked in 70 ultimates to the point you are actively griefing if you don’t bring one

to be fair, Smn was always (very) gud / top at the 70 ultimates, atleast they kept that for smn..

actually, even on the lv 80 ultimate smn was strong, ..is smn still strong there?

[Supersnow845]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/44 - #1 job for parses across savage, 13.1% of all DPS parses
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/38#region=1 - 6th most popular DPS job, 10.5% of all DPS parses (and remember, there's 1 more DPS job to consume percentage in EW than in ShB)

We can also take a look at more casual content:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/47 - #1 for number of parses across Aglaia, 14.0% of all DPS parses.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/40 - 7th for number of parses across Paradigm's Breach, 8.7% of all DPS parses.

So ya, statistically they are distinctly more popular than they were, especially in more casual content (which was, iirc, explicitly the intent, part of why they redesigned it was specifically because of the rotational complexity).

I know you are only answering her question and good on you for actually finding data but can we hold that for one extra savage patch, currently RPR and SGE are also more present than others in their role, SMN was changed so much it’s basically a different class, I think we need some extra time for these numbers to settle, because for example recent job satisfaction out of china shows it’s the least liked job by it’s mains so it may have a large fall off

[Kaedys]

I know you are only answering her question and good on you for actually finding data but can we hold that for one extra savage patch, currently RPR and SGE are also more present than others in their role, SMN was changed so much it’s basically a different class, I think we need some extra time for these numbers to settle, because for example recent job satisfaction out of china shows it’s the least liked job by it’s mains so it may have a large fall off

I agree that first-tier vs. last-tier is a tough judge, but that's the data we've got to work with so far. and it's a substantial enough shift, and measured late enough in the tier, that I'm fairly comfortable running with it until we get new data from the next tier. If we were talking much earlier in this tier, sure, the "it's shiny and new" argument may hold sway, but we're ~9 months into this redesign of SMN, and barely a month before the next raid tier. The shiny-and-new has had plenty of time to wear off. Yet the data persists, especially in more casual content where the easing of the rotation is most apparent.

As for Reaper and Sage, that's somewhat explained by the fact that they're dang fun jobs to play. RPR was my initial main this expansion, before I swapped SMN because I remembered why I hated playing melee jobs (positionals, and mechanics forcing disconnects), though RDM would have also been on a table if my static at the time hadn't already had one. And Sage is easily my favorite of the healers. So I find it entirely unsurprising that those jobs are over-represented even this far into the expansion/raid tier. It's not just the "shiny and new" aspect of them, they're simply designed really well, imo.

I'm not sure how much stock to put in "least liked by mains" type surveys. SMN gets a lot of hatred from SMN mains from ShB and prior, and that was essentially inevitable given the scope of changes. Those surveys can easily be swayed by that type of sentiment, especially since "main" isn't exactly a rigorously-defined term, much less able to be validated. Heck, Monk gets the same thing from older Monk players due to the removal of so many of the positionals. But unlike Monk, Summoner is played quite heavily. Also, China and the US differ considerably on a very large number of aspects, socially and culturally. Their approach to gaming, much like Korea's, is much more hardcore than the average in the Americas or Europe. It's extremely unlikely that preference trends translate well between the regions.

Still, as you say, we'll see more next raid tier. But my money is on SMN continuing to hold strong in its popularity. It may slip during early progression, simply because RDM machine-gun rezes (and Magick Barrier) are so bloody useful, but give it a bit for the progression surge to wind down, and SMN will still be right there at or near the top for number of parses logged, I expect.

[fulminating]

Cherrypicked datapoints mean nothing, get a full set. Given the relatively static use between tea and tea (14.10% to 14.89%, 14.10% to 10.64% for the expansion’s current ultimate), and the drop in use between endgame dungeons (14.99% to 14.22%), your two data points seem to be a bit of an oddity.

Edit: Sage is a copy paste of scholar and reaper is hollow, particularly in synced content. New is their only redeeming feature. The data is from the entire tier, which means it very much includes the shiny newness of the crayon eater.

[Kaedys]

Cherrypicked datapoints mean nothing, get a full set. Given the relatively static use between tea and tea (14.10% to 14.89%, 14.10% to 10.64% for the expansion’s current ultimate), and the drop in use between endgame dungeons (14.99% to 14.22%), your two data points seem to be a bit of an oddity.

<tells me not to cherrypick data>
<cherrypicks very specific data that doesn't even really counter my point>

Edit: Sage is a copy paste of scholar and reaper is hollow, particularly in synced content. New is their only redeeming feature. The data is from the entire tier, which means it very much includes the shiny newness of the crayon eater.

Sage has a very similar kit to Scholar, yes, but with some pretty notable difference. They have a lot more oGCD options up their sleeves, and at least a slightly more interesting GCD kit. I find playing Sage much more engaging than playing Scholar, tbh. But opinions of jobs are inherently subjective.

Reaper sub 70 (arguably sub 80) is utter garbage, yes. But I wasn't talking about playing Reaper in that MSQ roulette. I was talking about end-game content. Frankly, most of the jobs in the game are hot garbage at level 50, because the FFXIV devs can't seem to understand that having only a third of your kit for 2/3rds+ of the leveling progression feels terrible. Reapers are, imo, one of the worst offenders (up there with Paladin and Black Mage), but they're far from unique in that respect (it's just extra offensive given that SMN, which is basically brand new in EW as well, has something like 75% of its kit and essentially the core if its end-game rotation at level 26). Of the melee at endgame, I still think Reapers are one of the best designed due to the flexibility in play granted by the dual-gauge system. And unlike Machinist, their 1.5s GCD "Hypercharge" window is quite a bit of fun.

If the data is from the entire tier, why are the current number of parses in Asphod an order of magnitude higher than it was for the final tier of Eden, and why does the site specifically state at the top "over a range of 2 weeks"? Do you really think there were less than total parses in Eden Promise across all of 5.4 than there were just Summoner parses in Asphod thus far in EW? Or is it rather more likely that there were less total parses in Eden Promise in the last two weeks of that patch than there were Summoner parses in Asphod in the last 2 weeks? Something tells me there were more than 28k total parses across Eden Promise across all of 5.4.

[fulminating]

It’s less cherrypicked, and dungeons are a set of sets which should make the average more robust than a specifically chosen alliance raid that isn’t even the same position in the series - at least show copied factory and puppet’s bunker too to try and establish your trend.

As previously mentioned, the button that lets you view the entire tier didn’t seem to work on the Eden’s promise parses, which is why it was omitted. If you go and check verse or earlier then change that setting it shows a comparable amount.

I disagree. Edit:managed to highlight delete this paragraph sorry. There’s a dichotomy on whether jobs are coherent at 50, which largely seems defined by when they were introduced. As with a lot of issues, shadowbringers and onwards reworks or introductions seem to neglect all but the end game. Monk is a pretty notable exception to this, although it did have the opposite problem last expansion of feeling pretty complete at 50 with a few qol changes and a tacked on gauge system.

The way they went on about the damage to attack feature and how it is a less functional Selene/eos came across badly, the very copypasted nature of some heals also sat badly when they have the darkside mechanic that could have been used as a pseudo diurinal/nocturnal so ast wouldn’t have had to lose more of its identity. Even at 90 reaper just doesn’t feel good to me, I don’t think it’s a matter of familiarity but I’ll concede that it’s a possibility. There’s something that just feels a bit halfbaked about its rotation. Dunno least favourite melee, second least favourite dps, cool aesthetic though.