Summoner changes that should happen onto 7.0

[Deveryn]

Not by nearly as much as people would have you believe. If the cost for making an already fairly popular caster even more popular is every bit of fun that it used to offer, firstly the cost is way too high, secondly why bother and third why try and make summoner more popular when it’s black mage that has a disproportionately low user base? The cynic in me says this is sabotage because of its popularity - some bean counter has arbitrarily decided that to encourage people into jobs other than summoner, summoner must be killed. You will notice that all the jobs with lower play rates in Eden received more substantial reworks than the higher. Was a spreadsheet wizard expecting the disgruntled former summoner mains to flock to bard after they killed dot synergy on it? Only SE knows.

Last time I checked, we were playing Final Fantasy, not Eden raids. SMN might've done well in those 1v1s but it suffered elsewhere.

[Supersnow845]

Last time I checked, we were playing Final Fantasy, not Eden raids. SMN might've done well in those 1v1s but it suffered elsewhere.

14 is balanced around savage and it always has been even yoshi has never denied that or tried to argue otherwise, it’s why the classes are so badly balanced in AOE

a class balanced well for savage is a class well balanced

[aveyond-dreams]

I cannot think of a more inaccurate manner to gauge class interest and satisfaction than by going off of savage alone. Doing that led to the gutting of Astrologian's cards in favor of only damage up buffs with everything else rendered "useless" despite how much players outside that content liked having that sort of variety of effects to play with.

People favoring Summoner in savage fights does not mean that the experience was a particularly good one for people outside of content where min-maxing damage is no longer an issue, such as dungeons, alliance raids, and Bozja. Shadowbringers Summoner demanded too much work and juggling compared to all other classes in the game, on top of its already punishing nature. I refused to take the class outside of normal content prior to my abandoning it, let alone anything harder than extremes. I did those on Red Mage and Dancer instead.

It didn't work. So it was changed. The few cannot be allowed to dictate over the many in this case, especially not the top players who demanded people get good when the class was suffering from more frequent glitches than it is now, as if that worked as a check on the player's skill. You can't ask me to get good when that is what we're dealing with. A handful of ex-WoW streamers have also cited numerous times that changing things to fit around high end raiders from anything to requirements to get into the raid to how abilities work also makes for an unfun experience for anyone outside that group.

I only hope that whatever future caster is added to FFXIV picks a theme and niche and stays with it rather than trying to be everything at once.

[Supersnow845]

I cannot think of a more inaccurate manner to gauge class interest and satisfaction than by going off of savage alone. Doing that led to the gutting of Astrologian's cards in favor of only damage up buffs with everything else rendered "useless" despite how much players outside that content liked having that sort of variety of effects to play with.

People favoring Summoner in savage fights does not mean that the experience was a particularly good one for people outside of content where min-maxing damage is no longer an issue, such as dungeons, alliance raids, and Bozja. Shadowbringers Summoner demanded too much work and juggling compared to all other classes in the game, on top of its already punishing nature. I refused to take the class outside of normal content prior to my abandoning it, let alone anything harder than extremes. I did those on Red Mage and Dancer instead.

It didn't work. So it was changed. The few cannot be allowed to dictate over the many in this case, especially not the top players who demanded people get good when the class was suffering from more frequent glitches than it is now, as if that worked as a check on the player's skill. You can't ask me to get good when that is what we're dealing with. A handful of ex-WoW streamers have also cited numerous times that changing things to fit around high end raiders from anything to requirements to get into the raid to how abilities work also makes for an unfun experience for anyone outside that group.

I only hope that whatever future caster is added to FFXIV picks a theme and niche and stays with it rather than trying to be everything at once.

That’s not my point at all, you can dislike a class outside of savage but balancing decisions are based on savage (not below and not above classes aren’t designed for ultimate they are specifically balanced for savage), SMN wasn’t even the most complex class in ShB it was roughly middle of the pack (it just had a lot of Jank which they should have and did remove but there is a difference between Jank and complexity)

The AST example is moot and that’s because that wasn’t a change due to AST that was a wider decision to remove long pre-pull timers and preparation phases (see also changes in CD’s resetting on death, NIN combat mudra changes and outside of combat aetherflow generation) again because of their need to balance classes for savage

SMN was a class that needed its Jank removed, not to be completely lobotomised leaving a hole where the class identity used to be because they also lobotomised SCH for similar reasons 1 expansion ago

[RocciaSolida]

What I want for 7.0: the job getting reworked completely AGAIN. Right now it's absolute trash that makes you fall asleep, just cycle through your crayons and hope they crit.
No resource management, no intense phase, the two demis play the exact same, useless carbuncle.
Just redo it from scratch, I played one tier with the job and I'm done with it already, had I not taken a break since February I would have switched to another job.
I really hope YoshiP doesn't change other classes following the same philosophy used with SMN

[VentVanitas]

People favoring Summoner in savage fights does not mean that the experience was a particularly good one for people outside of content where min-maxing damage is no longer an issue, such as dungeons, alliance raids, and Bozja. Shadowbringers Summoner demanded too much work and juggling compared to all other classes in the game, on top of its already punishing nature. I refused to take the class outside of normal content prior to my abandoning it, let alone anything harder than extremes. I did those on Red Mage and Dancer instead.

Are we talking about the same job? ShB SMN was probably one of the least punishing jobs from that expansion, even when considering Egi ghosting. You could do nothing but hit buttons on cooldown and still do adequate damage because the bulk of it came from Bahamut and Phoenix. Compared to the likes of pre-rework MNK with Greased Lightning, BLM, NIN or even DRG or BRD, SMN was quite forgiving.

[Deveryn]

14 is balanced around savage and it always has been even yoshi has never denied that or tried to argue otherwise, it’s why the classes are so badly balanced in AOE

a class balanced well for savage is a class well balanced

What good is that if the class is broken in the areas leading up to that point?

[Supersnow845]

What good is that if the class is broken in the areas leading up to that point?

It was janky but it certainly wasn’t broken, and I never said we shouldn’t have gotten rid of the Jank, the class functionally played no better or worse than any other class did outside of savage especially since you can just roll your head across the keyboard and clear casual content anyway

[Deveryn]

It was janky but it certainly wasn’t broken, and I never said we shouldn’t have gotten rid of the Jank, the class functionally played no better or worse than any other class did outside of savage especially since you can just roll your head across the keyboard and clear casual content anyway

Keep telling yourself that... Obviously, they saw things differently and had wanted to move out of that awful space for some time.

[Supersnow845]

Keep telling yourself that... Obviously, they saw things differently and had wanted to move out of that awful space for some time.

And instead we got the worst class since the great healer lobotomy of 5.0, this alternative is nothing to be happy about, it plays like a level 60 class and removed a niche that old SMN and SCH both occupied that they removed from both of them

And that still doesn’t change that classes are designed for savage and that is how it’s always been