The feeling of beeing Home ...

[Tehmon]

It's not about wanting MC's killed off left and right for shock value. It's that you never ever feel any tension for these characters because they are unkillable. A lot of moments that would otherwise be nail biting or gut wrenching are just non impactful because you know they will be fine. In endwalker we are facing the biggest threat in the universe and came out without any casualties in our group, SOMEONE should have been lost like srsly. One person dying on the rare occasion would be enough to give that feeling of danger back.

You're just taking things to an extreme to be disingenuous.

This'd be an okay argument IF we were talking with people who don't actively want scions to die purely because they dislike them as characters.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

doesn't matter who gets removed or added you all are still gonna complain anyways.

I see, so that's what your crystal ball says. My crystal ball says you're wrong though.

[Theodric]

This'd be an okay argument IF we were talking with people who don't actively want scions to die purely because they dislike them as characters.

What about those of us who came to dislike them precisely because they're clad in such ridiculous levels of plot armour?

We can also safely suggest that this stance doesn't go both ways, either. I see many people who fawn over the Scions quite happily push for characters they happen to dislike to be killed - even if they're not an antagonist but happen to look at their character the wrong way.

[Tehmon]

What about those of us who came to dislike them precisely because they're clad in such ridiculous levels of plot armour?

We can also safely suggest that this stance doesn't go both ways, either. I see many people who fawn over the Scions quite happily push for characters they happen to dislike to be killed - even if they're not an antagonist but happen to look at their character the wrong way.

Well death is certainly not going to make them any more interesting as characters

[Theodric]

Well death is certainly not going to make them any more interesting as characters

It can, quite easily. Death does not prevent a character from being fleshed out posthumously. Moenbryda's been dead for almost ten years but that hasn't stopped the game from bringing her up frequently and adding to her story.

Kind of like how, in the real world, if someone dies their loved ones will typically reveal little snippets of their lives through reminiscing.

[hagare]

I see, so that's what your crystal ball says. My crystal ball says you're wrong though.

well the gemini constellation in sky says you're super wrong. Take taht~!

[Rulakir]

I agree that Arenvald shouldn't have been paralyzed. G'raha Tia should've died instead in 5.3 so he could take up the role of the party's second tank, and hopefully have some of that idealism of his dialed down by being humbled a bit over the course of the next expansion.

Paralyzing Arenvald hasn't served any purpose, so it was ultimately a pointless consequence. However, I don't want his optimism anywhere near the party. Estinien may say there's more than enough realists in the world, but we're certainly not surrounded by them. Consider that Estinien lost a lot of his bite after joining the Scions, you really think they'd write Arenvald to have his idealism reduced? Not likely.

The better option would be Fordola. Ultimately, she faces the same doom of losing her teeth like Estinien, but they'd have a long way to go for that as opposed to Arenvald who is already peak Scion material.

What about those of us who came to dislike them precisely because they're clad in such ridiculous levels of plot armour?

This. I didn't have any particularly negative feelings about the Scions until EW and since then I've become resentful of them, for lack of a better word. By virtue of attaching themselves to the WoL they are guaranteed near effortless wins without any losses or even setbacks. Meanwhile, other characters are brutalized to make up for the fact that the Scions are immortal (have to squeeze those tears from somewhere). Given the themes of EW, it was ridiculous to me I should view them as the poster children for overcoming suffering and despair compared to, frankly, just about anyone else and particularly the Ancients whose experiences still dwarf anything the sundered have been through by orders of magnitude. I'm extremely disappointed that the Final Days weren't as severe as they should have been outside of basically Thavnair.

[Tehmon]

It can, quite easily. Death does not prevent a character from being fleshed out posthumously. Moenbryda's been dead for almost ten years but that hasn't stopped the game from bringing her up frequently and adding to her story.

Kind of like how, in the real world, if someone dies their loved ones will typically reveal little snippets of their lives through reminiscing.

I see, so if you want people to like you and know more about you, you need to kill yourself?

This makes no sense. People who would enjoy Moenbryda would rather have her be alive to explore her past and her character, rather than have posthumous recollections about how she serves as a vehicle for Urianger's character and nothing else.

[aveyond-dreams]

You cannot hope to keep my long term attention if the story you're going to tell me is devoid of meaningful character growth that is punctuated by events such as loss, change, or death. Now that the longstanding and relatively well-liked antagonist faction has been done away with, attention now turns to the scions that they've decided to keep around. These characters however have either regressed in terms of their growth or have fallen into cyclical loops where they go through the same plot points repeatedly just in different settings. It's gotten old. Please do better.

Allow me to highlight some of the more defining moments that party members have experienced throughout the Final Fantasy series and other games:

- Yuna breaking down in tears under the weight of the pressure placed on her shoulders, which in turn allowed for Tidus to comfort her and allowed for her to grow as a heroine by expressing the sort of emotional vulnerability that to date, only Ysayle has expressed in FFXIV. Y'shtola has never done this, nor do I think they would allow for her to do so.

- Vivi discovering that as a Black Mage, his lifespan would be limited due to the nature of his creation. After the events of the game, this character died but his "sons" lived on to carry on his legacy.

- The suicide attempt by Celes Chere in FFVI, when unlike the scions despair truly brought her to and past the brink. Her survival and receiving of a message of hope by way of Locke's bandanna to this day resonates more with the message of "forging ahead" than anything that happened in Endwalker.

- Noctis fulfilling his destiny by sacrificing himself to defeat Ardyn permanently, ending the Starscourge's grip on Eos and restoring the light to the world.

- Vanille confessing to Sazh that she is the cause of the suffering inflicted upon both him and his son due to her actions, offering her life in penance with her arms outstretched.

As a Final Fantasy game that now aspires to bill itself as being on par with other single player titles, I expect more to come from the main party than what we've seen done with the scions so far. "Heroines" like Y'shtola who show so little in terms of character progression or vulnerability under the guise of being a strong or independent character just isn't interesting. Celes Chere is a general for goodness sake, and she was able to show a wider range of emotions over the course of her story than Y'shtola.

FFXIV as a whole needs to be bolder with how far they're willing to go with the main party - and that doesn't mean adding more humor, slice of life scenes, or magical girl transformation sequences. What this story needs is for the party to have moments of greater substance. We had them in Heavensward. Please bring them back.

[Theodric]

I see, so if you want people to like you and know more about you, you need to kill yourself?

This makes no sense. People who would enjoy Moenbryda would rather have her be alive to explore her past and her character, rather than have posthumous recollections about how she serves as a vehicle for Urianger's character and nothing else.

I think you're just twisting my words at this point.

There's plenty of characters I like who have been killed off in various games, movies and other forms of media. Death isn't necessary for their story to be expanded, though we're specifically highlighting that if a character does die then it does not mean that they suddenly cannot have their story expanded further through various means.

Let's not forget that the game has the Echo. It could be used as another way to showcase memories of fallen characters to give a little more insight into their pasts.