Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[SentioftheHoukai]

I’m gonna be frank. However biased I may be when defending Venat, nothing will quite match the motivated reasoning of some of these posts. There is quite literally no point to discussing this further, it will not be any different than the other threads we’ve already had on this.

Move on. Or better yet forge ahead.

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully DECLINE. I've never been particularly talented at doing what others tell me, and my bias against Venat will never be silenced by mere words however MOTIVATED it may be. More things exist in heaven and earth than exist in your philosophy, and more are permitted to share their thoughts and opinions on this forum than those that favor and praise Venat.

[Vyrerus]

I don't recall getting that impression at all. As far as I remember, she tested us and was pleased that we passed the trial.

The chicanery surrounding that whole sequence kind of lends itself away from paying attention to Hydaelyn's words closely. It's in the lines from her:

HYDAELYN: "Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me. I entrust the fate of the universe unto you."

It is sandwiched between Y'shtola's scripterwriter driven monologue, Hydaelyn's awareness of her wrongdoing, and passing on Meteion's locator crystal.

This one line says so much. It's staggering in its characterization of her (and of course I wonder what it is in other languages).

It means, she expected us to lose to her, at the very least. That while she longed for mankind to surpass her, she never thought they actually would.

It means that her perception of the Sundered(Hell, the Unsundered for that matter, too) is similar to Emet-selch's. She's just focused on us being to feeble for a different responsibility. Rather than, "Too feeble to be stewards of any star!" It's, "Too feeble to entrust with the fate of the universe."

But you know, she wasn't concerned with mincing words about it. She wanted to get right down to the test of power. The test of strength. Like any true kratocrat.

[Iscah]

HYDAELYN: "Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me. I entrust the fate of the universe unto you."

That is literally a fancy way of saying "you did better than I expected".

That could mean anything from "I didn't think you could win" to "I thought you'd take a bit longer to beat me".

It can be "you're even stronger than I hoped you would be".

[Cilia]

Didn't think actions that were morally incorrect but existentially necessary (lit. necessary evils) were that controversial an idea. If we can't agree such things exist, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

... which, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, is what people are saying, not trying to shut down criticism. It's just that we've gone down that road to the end of the line time and again already; no point in doing so once more. Also, it's been seven months.

[EaraGrace]

I'm afraid I'll have to respectfully DECLINE. I've never been particularly talented at doing what others tell me, and my bias against Venat will never be silenced by mere words however MOTIVATED it may be. More things exist in heaven and earth than exist in your philosophy, and more are permitted to share their thoughts and opinions on this forum than those that favor and praise Venat.

The melodrama remains thick in these threads.

The chicanery surrounding that whole sequence kind of lends itself away from paying attention to Hydaelyn's words closely. It's in the lines from her:

HYDAELYN: "Now you, my chosen, have surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me. I entrust the fate of the universe unto you."

It is sandwiched between Y'shtola's scripterwriter driven monologue, Hydaelyn's awareness of her wrongdoing, and passing on Meteion's locator crystal.

This one line says so much. It's staggering in its characterization of her (and of course I wonder what it is in other languages).

It means, she expected us to lose to her, at the very least. That while she longed for mankind to surpass her, she never thought they actually would.

Sigh

No, no it doesn’t say that. It quite literally follows Her collapsing on the ground defeated saying

At last… man has the strength to…

Now perhaps I’m a weirdo, but when I don’t expect something to happen I don’t go “at last” and let out a sigh of relief. That, to me, says “I had concerns but always had hope and faith.” Which is weirdly enough exactly what she goes on to say.

Not to mention the constant statements by Venat about her faith in mankind’s potential.

It means that her perception of the Sundered(Hell, the Unsundered for that matter, too) is similar to Emet-selch's. She's just focused on us being to feeble for a different responsibility. Rather than, "Too feeble to be stewards of any star!" It's, "Too feeble to entrust with the fate of the universe."

So her ultimate plan was to entrust the fate of the universe to beings she doesn’t actually trust the universe to? A position that would fly in the face of her stated philosophy on humanity and the whole reason she felt the Sundering worth going through with?

But you know, she wasn't concerned with mincing words about it. She wanted to get right down to the test of power. The test of strength. Like any true kratocrat.

In Shadowbringers, so much attention was focused in this forum on the “moral nuances” in the story, and with Endwalker however that just gets ignored. Like once again I fully admit to believing Venat in the right and the Ascians in the complete wrong, but I was deeply alone for having black and white thinking on the issue less than a year ago. I simply do not understand why that desire to explore moral complexity is completely and utterly abandoned when it comes to Venat.

Didn't think actions that were morally incorrect but existentially necessary (lit. necessary evils) were that controversial an idea. If we can't agree such things exist, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

... which, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, is what people are saying, not trying to shut down criticism. It's just that we've gone down that road to the end of the line time and again already; no point in doing so once more. Also, it's been seven months.

Time is a flat circle on the lore forums apparently.

[SannaR]

A flat circle that I really don't feel 6.2 at least won't be a big enough distraction. Or big enough bone to chew on.

[RyuDragnier]

Didn't think actions that were morally incorrect but existentially necessary (lit. necessary evils) were that controversial an idea. If we can't agree such things exist, there's no point in continuing to discuss this.

... which, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, is what people are saying, not trying to shut down criticism. It's just that we've gone down that road to the end of the line time and again already; no point in doing so once more. Also, it's been seven months.

People will never let it drop, because you can be on any other subject, somebody mentions some event in game...AND THEN HERE COMES THE PEOPLE STARTING UP THE ARGUMENTS AGAIN. I seriously doubt the arguments will stop until people are banned from these forums. I don't even think a huge lore drop for a new region would stop this crap from happening, and makes me question if it's even worth talking about lore on these forums anymore if it's just going to keep devolving into the same topics every time.

[Veloran]

That is literally a fancy way of saying "you did better than I expected".

That could mean anything from "I didn't think you could win" to "I thought you'd take a bit longer to beat me".

It can be "you're even stronger than I hoped you would be".

The wording of "surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me." strongly implies that her expectation was that you would not surpass her.

Not to mention the constant statements by Venat about her faith in mankind’s potential.

In the same way Emet-Selch hoped that WoL would surpass and defeat him, but didn't actually believe it was possible, Venat thought the same. Hence why she developed the entire evacuation plan to begin with, because she thought it could come to that.

I fully admit to believing Venat in the right and the Ascians in the complete wrong, but I was deeply alone for having black and white thinking on the issue less than a year ago. I simply do not understand why that desire to explore moral complexity is completely and utterly abandoned when it comes to Venat.

You don't understand value judgements? If someone values loyalty and honestly, or the quality of a life more than just the existence of a life, they probably won't sympathize with Venat. You can believe in moral complexity and still believe that Venat was very wrong, if you consider her actions to be antithetical to your own moral framework.

But as you say, less than a year ago you didn't consider moral complexity valid and viewed the conflict in black and white terms. So when the situation gets turned around, and your position loses it's moral simplicity, and you find yourself arguing "well actually this genocide was justified because it reached an end I agree with", I don't think accusations of double standards are very appropriate.

[thegreatonemal]

The wording of "surpassed my expectations. Surpassed me." strongly implies that her expectation was that you would not surpass her.


In the same way Emet-Selch hoped that WoL would surpass and defeat him, but didn't actually believe it was possible, Venat thought the same. Hence why she developed the entire evacuation plan to begin with, because she thought it could come to that.

Wait wha? That's not at all what happened. He only believed in us as he was dying, freed from his tempering. Before that he was trying to kill us the entire time and if we passed his "test" and refused to work together to rejoin the rest of the shard in his own words "Then I simply kill you all."

[Brinne]

Wait wha? That's not at all what happened. He only believed in us as he was dying, freed from his tempering. Before that he was trying to kill us the entire time and if we passed his "test" and refused to work together to rejoin the rest of the shard in his own words "Then I simply kill you all."

Someone else posted it much earlier in the thread, but per Yoshida himself:

Yoshi P: While this is really nuanced and difficult to convey, but from the perspective of Emet-Selch who possesses the knowledge of unsundered souls, he felt it should be easy to contain the light emitted by the Lightwardens regardless of how fragmented the soul is.

Famitsu: So he judged the Warrior of Light to be a failure.

Yoshi P: That was the conclusion he came to. If the Warrior of Light, even with a fragmented soul, could contain all of that light, Emet-Selch felt he might have to re-examine his views on humanity itself…

This is precisely why he had to experience the journey himself; he really thought that by joining hands with humans, he could have found a different solution to the methods that he and the Ascians had taken up until that point.