Useless PVP abilities in your opinion?

[Dreadz]

Spent 10mins typing up my reply only to be told that it exceeded the word count. -_-
I'll just say this then, your entire post reads like you've never played the job for any significant amount of time in PvP and most your experience with it comes from reading the tooltips. Are you related to G-Serpent by any chance?

Edit: Just remembered pastebin is a thing, so I'll dump it there, it's pretty sloppy though.
https://pastebin.com/3TMdiG7n

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Spent 10mins typing up my reply only to be told that it exceeded the word count. -_-
I'll just say this then, your entire post reads like you've never played the job for any significant amount of time in PvP and most your experience with it comes from reading the tooltips. Are you related to G-Serpent by any chance?

Edit: Just remembered pastebin is a thing, so I'll dump it there, it's pretty sloppy though.
https://pastebin.com/3TMdiG7n

You spent 10min refuting about half of my points with "you're wrong because I said so" (ill grant you the Eventide vs mitigation one) and went full ad hominem (attacking / slandering me in an attempt to discredit my points) , belittling my PvP experience like as if I have not PvPed any significant amount.

Ive been active for the past four seasons of PvP including current:
- Season 18, barely falling shy of reaching Top 100 as WAR
- Season 19, actually reaching Top 100 as WAR DRK
- Season 20, only went for a 2000ish Diamond rating as DRK because I didnt care.
- CC season 1, went for Crystal and then just played for improving vs T100 candidates as DRK PLD GNB
- CC Season 2, actively going for a climb as DRK


My PvP experience from the past year carries well over into this new system, for fundamentals still work and help me a ton. You really aren't talking to some novice here, so if you at least not want to agree with me, cut the BS like "your entire post reads like you've never played the job for any significant amount of time in PvP and most your experience with it comes from reading the tooltips" at least.

Regarding TBN dps "loss". Again, you aren't losing damage. Upon break gaining a free Shadowbringer means you get a zero risk of free 6000 Shadowbringer damage as well a worst case of an average of +2000 damage over combo average at max HP and on average you gain +4000-6000 damage over average combo damage, at a comfy 30-40k HP. What the free Shadowbringer does is not make you "lose" damage, it keeps it stable as it keeps your HP pool stable. Sorry but I really cannot explain this any better for you.

You mention how Salted Earth is still seemingly useless to you and cited the glaring weakness vs ranged damage and how it cripples it. Since you did so well belittling me, shouldn't you know that using walls is crucial when engaging against ranged attackers? I use walls extensively in combat since season 18 thanks to good advice I received back then, which helps take off a lot of pressure off myself. So for similar reasons, I place Salted Earth on corners so I can combine the bubble mitigation with wall dancing.

Putting aside the good point you made against Eventide for it being weak to mitigation, you are again wrongly comparing PLD's and GNB's LB to it. All three have completely different usecases and recharge times.

PLD at 2:00min recharge grants massive defense to your team and lets you apply Confiteor debuffs for quite some time. It is incredibly high value, but the long cooldown means you can't just freefire it.
GNB at 1:00min recharge is very accessible and turns you into a meat grinder with bonus mitigation, however you are not immune to interruption not are you invincible. The game here is going fast in, get value, get out unless you have ressoirces to keep going.
DRK at 1:30min charges average at odd intervals to PLD. It grants you similar staying power and higher damage potential, but you are at risk getting CCed, so positioning matters. Using walls once again is key.

What sets it apart from the other two is the timing of when the LB is ready, the speed / range of the initial damage going out and the overall flexibility of the LB not needing to place it for your team vs LB combos (PLD) and not having to hard commit to get any value out of it by daahing in (GNB).

Calling Plunge's Heal reduction not worth mentioning is also quite surprising, given the relative permanence of the uptime of it. Cutting off 3000 HP per Recup and lowering potency-based shields go a long way for pressure. You are also incorrect of it giving only one Shadowbringer worth of HP, if you take MP for recuperate into account this is actually two Shadowbringers worth of ressources, or simply 24000HP in the survival piggy bank.

Lastly, ever since the Bloodspiller scaling adjustment you don't actually need to nearly kill yourself to do good damage, already at 30-40k HP do Bloodspillers do respectable damage.

Look, I can see where you are coming from, I originally shared various viewpoints you had, but I extensively tried DRK because I wanted to learn the job. The job isn't nearly as gloom as you make it and despite you malding over how i'm pretending to just play the job, I actually main it and get pretty decent results. Ofc it is difficult, especially in Crystal, but DRK is actually in a good place.

[Vatom]

DRK is actually in a good place.

First Off I agree

But to state what I saw with DRK that I think needs help

LD on Cloud (forget them right now) when you get hit up in the are you will still die
Doesn't happen with HG and yes I understand your still taking dmg but the fact is I shouldn't die to it but hey thats just me
also the fact that its dmg is based off of your HP being full and not lower is contradictory to me if they could solve these two I will shut up

Also why didn't no one note that Salted gives a 10% debuff to everyone in it
I mean when everyone is on the point its a game changer especially if there is a turret with you OP
2k per tic heal
4k dmg per tic
20% mit
10% debuff
draw in
bind which works even if they leave the area btw aslong as they touch the area but I do believe there is a window for how long till it doesn't
but it could be latency Im still playing with it
I am king of this land

Plunge is a beautiful snowball sleeper no one but the few notice
when the team collapse on one player plunge , see someone low plunge, securing a kill plunge Bloodspiller
Let the good times roll

TBN stronger then BW's shield by 2k doesn't tie you down can be given to others so let the MNK engage first and shield him then plunge whoever is the lowest
This talk of DPS lost in PVP is dumb dmg does matter but whats the point it your enemy still stands MNK can LB someone at 100% or at 50% they still can live
but wait there is more the game isn't about dmg its about the point if they are off it you gain if they are on it you don't the game wins off of that (This wasn't for you but for the other one that doesn't use their kit to its fullest)

DRK benifits from more enemies its near LB and all if no one is near you, you are positioning bad
if you want to talk about Dps loss not hitting more then one person with ShB is a Dps lose hmmm? dumb I swear

You only gain dmg from low health on BS so why would you rush to get low health
My idea of how DrK and WAR play is like a runner you run (take dmg and do dmg) and when you about to give (if not CC'd lol) you get your second wind (Quietus and BW) and do it all over again and I guess you could call your runner's high your LB

Ok Im done

[Rhyneth]

LD on Cloud (forget them right now) when you get hit up in the are you will still die

Happens to PLD LB as well, I'm pretty sure. No form of invulnerability will save you.

[Dreadz]

First of, I apologize for slandering you or belittling your PvP experience, it's just that from my experience in other games, people who usually just use numbers and tooltips to get their point across more often than not don't even play the thing they're discussing. So again, I apologize.

Regarding TBN, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I see the ability as being nigh worthless considering it's low potency and the reward you get for breaking it sucks. An easy fix I would suggest is for Dark Arts Shadowbringer to have a potency of 8k instead of 6k.

Yes, I also use walls and place SE near them. The problem is walls are not always available, especially if you're trying to contest the crystal and ranged characters can simply adjust, especially on maps like Cloud Nine and Palaistra. Again, SE's biggest problem is that the damn draw-in barely does it's job and by the time Salt and Darkness goes off, people are well outside the AoE, which conveniently puts them out of Quietus' AoE.

I don't think it's wrong to compare DRK's LB to GNB and PLD, considering DRK's LB is literally a mix of both, but worse. If you want raw damage, GNB beats out DRK, if you want survivability, PLD beats out DRK, this isn't even mentioning that both GND and PLD LB apply a debuff/buff that their teammates can use. DRK's LB is completely selfish, require high hp to actually do noticeably damage (20k), said damage is easily reduced to 5k by way of one heal and leaves the DRK at 1hp. The 30sec gap between DRK and PLD is basically a non-factor as well, considering PLD's LB has a much higher potential to actually be impactful in the match.

I find plunge useless because you need teammates to followup on it to get any actual value out of it and since the effect isn't super obvious like say a stun, the chances of that happening are slim. I was wrong on the HP regain though, completely forgot that it gave back enough MP for a heal as well.

The Bloodspiller changes were nice and like you said, you start doing decent damage at 30k-40k HP mark, the problem here is that there is no way to maintain that mark without using up all your MP.

I think the job is okay for what it is, but I see no reason to play it over any other job in PvP. I've made it my goal to OTP DRK to Crystal this season and progress has basically stopped since hitting diamond 4. Players there hard focus me because they know that DRKs can't dish out damage and receive damage at the same time. The amount of individual DRKs I came across during that time is also extremely low, to the point that I can count them on one hand. The job is high-risk, mediocre reward.

One thing that bothers me though, is that for some reason, everyone seems to forget about the disgusting amount of CC in PvP and DRK suffers the worst because of it. Hit character limit again -_-

[Vatom]

Regarding TBN, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I see the ability as being nigh worthless considering it's low potency and the reward you get for breaking it sucks. An easy fix I would suggest is for Dark Arts Shadowbringer to have a potency of 8k instead of 6k.

I wont fight you on that giving it 2k more dmg isnt a bad thing as for worthless eh... we will just go with agree to disagree

Again, SE's biggest problem is that the damn draw-in barely does it's job and by the time Salt and Darkness goes off, people are well outside the AoE, which conveniently puts them out of Quietus' AoE.

I think this is more impacted by server tic then anything but I understand the frustration when you can leave one spot it gets to me when I got off of any other class and play DRK

DRK's LB is completely selfish, require high hp to actually do noticeably damage (20k), said damage is easily reduced to 5k by way of one heal and leaves the DRK at 1hp.

At first I was going to agree but if you look at the LB and look at the kit
Salted happens every 30s GNB LB every min both de buff 10%(if in circle)/20%(if hit) and CC DrK(Pull/Bind) GnB(stun) I can give you nebula also mits but ET stops you from dying (unless thrown in the air-_-) Ofcouse GnB does more dmg but it also dies faster there is a trade off
I think HG is just Op so I can't say much to that 2mins doesn't give it the right either but they can't debuff and only have one stun also cant AOE often so its hard to pin down I main issue is that the dmg is tied to your health in the most stupid of directions but wait theres more Salted heals 2k you can use ShB even if you have 2hp so you can spam each tic and wait theres more quietus to shoot your hp up during this but would be nice to have 2 draws or draw and bind at the same time would be easier to deal with since servers are bad

I find plunge useless ////since the effect isn't super obvious like say a stun, the chances of that happening are slim.

Yeah the fact that it doesn't give some type of mark on their head saddens me since when i drop a enemy to 30% no one helps me finish when I'm low health
This is also tied to player skill to some player don't even know what you did even if it had a marker
I mean if you fight for it you can kill someone but that's if the team isn't blitzing you

everyone seems to forget about the disgusting amount of CC in PvP and DRK suffers the worst because of it.

I agree with you here but I mean what can you give them CC immunity? maybe if they tied it to TBN but if its on the LB then whats the difference between WAR and DRK they need to fix purify first maybe extend the duration when hit still at 1 or maybe when CC the duration pauses and you still are immortal IDK CC is a big issue with PVP right now

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

First of, I apologize for slandering you or belittling your PvP experience, it's just that from my experience in other games, people who usually just use numbers and tooltips to get their point across more often than not don't even play the thing they're discussing. So again, I apologize.

No harm done, it just felt a tad annoying and I wanted to clear up a potential misconception here.

Regarding TBN, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I see the ability as being nigh worthless considering it's low potency and the reward you get for breaking it sucks. An easy fix I would suggest is for Dark Arts Shadowbringer to have a potency of 8k instead of 6k.

To each their own, for me 8000 shield potency is actually plenty and goes a long way for survival / utility. Regarding a stronger Shadowbringer cast upon TBN break, wouldn't even be opposed to this idea, though unsure how it may affect overall damage numbers in the long run. For an oGCD action, 6000 AOE potency is actually fairly good, would depend on the rest of the build.

Yes, I also use walls and place SE near them. The problem is walls are not always available, especially if you're trying to contest the crystal and ranged characters can simply adjust, especially on maps like Cloud Nine and Palaistra. Again, SE's biggest problem is that the damn draw-in barely does it's job and by the time Salt and Darkness goes off, people are well outside the AoE, which conveniently puts them out of Quietus' AoE.

Wall availability is a global issue not limited to DRK. I could go on a completely different discussion regarding Paleistra middle and Cloud 9 in general having problematic map design, something I'm intending to address in a separate forum post the coming week. The Draw-In not being as snappy is also an issue I can see many are having, though the solution to this lies essentially within the sloppy netcode that I don't see changing anytime soon, so for now we have to make due with it.

I don't think it's wrong to compare DRK's LB to GNB and PLD, considering DRK's LB is literally a mix of both, but worse. If you want raw damage, GNB beats out DRK, if you want survivability, PLD beats out DRK, this isn't even mentioning that both GND and PLD LB apply a debuff/buff that their teammates can use. DRK's LB is completely selfish, require high hp to actually do noticeably damage (20k), said damage is easily reduced to 5k by way of one heal and leaves the DRK at 1hp. The 30sec gap between DRK and PLD is basically a non-factor as well, considering PLD's LB has a much higher potential to actually be impactful in the match.

I find plunge useless because you need teammates to followup on it to get any actual value out of it and since the effect isn't super obvious like say a stun, the chances of that happening are slim. I was wrong on the HP regain though, completely forgot that it gave back enough MP for a heal as well.

Comparing them isn't wrong per se, but it is always important to keep in mind the pros and cons of each. DRK's LB is as you say basically selfish, they basically just hotglue themselves to stay alive for a minimum of 10 seconds. I'd be unsure how balanced it would be to attach debuffs similar to the other tank LBs, given you already have a rather potent debuff within Plunge. You may not agree, but Healing Recovery Down is generally a really strong debuff. What I agree with you though is that it is essentially team reliant that they actually focus the target you are jumping on to enable your snowballing, something I am frustrating myself plenty with even in Diamond-Crystal - could also just be me jumping at bad times, though.

The Bloodspiller changes were nice and like you said, you start doing decent damage at 30k-40k HP mark, the problem here is that there is no way to maintain that mark without using up all your MP.

Very true, which is why DRK needs to act fast and pressure hard. Your MP just like your HP is essentially a resource for damage if you are planning to engage for a lot of pressure on enemy targets, I find myself retreating half-way to restock HP + MP with Elixir on various occasions. Doing so means retreating to my own walls, which gives me an advantage based on the game state:
- someone chasing me? They are overextending and are engaging potentially in a 1v1 with me, DRK is a surprisingly strong 1v1 job when the occasion arises.
- noone follows me? I get to replenish for free.
- multiple people chasing me? admittedly I'm screwed. :P

I think the job is okay for what it is, but I see no reason to play it over any other job in PvP. I've made it my goal to OTP DRK to Crystal this season and progress has basically stopped since hitting diamond 4. Players there hard focus me because they know that DRKs can't dish out damage and receive damage at the same time. The amount of individual DRKs I came across during that time is also extremely low, to the point that I can count them on one hand. The job is high-risk, mediocre reward.

One thing that bothers me though, is that for some reason, everyone seems to forget about the disgusting amount of CC in PvP and DRK suffers the worst because of it. Hit character limit again -_-

That's cool, DRK is not everyone's cup of tea and that is fine. It is an incredibly difficult job to play well and the effort may not be worth the reward for many, but once properly mastered really does bring a world of pain. I would not recommend DRK for most people simply because of the effort it takes.

It is not that we forget the disgusting amount of CC, EVERY melee combat job suffers from it. Similar to my gripes with Paleistra and Cloud 9 map design, the current amount and functions of crowd control needs to be looked at. I personally am advocating for the return of Fetter Ward as a global action similar to Guard and Purify, to allow for pre-emptive CC mitigation without having to waste Guard or relying on reactive Purify. This would need to happen in conjunction with other job changes such as some Limit Break overhauls (MNK's Meteo Drive and NIN's Seiton Tenchou come to mind) as the global existence of Fetter Ward would buff certain jobs more than others.

Regarding character limit, copy / cut what is too much with CTRL+C/X, post the reply then edit it and paste back the rest with CTRL+V.

[Dreadz]

Wall availability is a global issue not limited to DRK. I could go on a completely different discussion regarding Paleistra middle and Cloud 9 in general having problematic map design, something I'm intending to address in a separate forum post the coming week. The Draw-In not being as snappy is also an issue I can see many are having, though the solution to this lies essentially within the sloppy netcode that I don't see changing anytime soon, so for now we have to make due with it.

The terrible level design really does screw over melee jobs hard, DRK more so because of SE and Shadowbringer. Speaking of SE, I'd honestly just get rid of Salt and Darkness and just have it automatically apply heavy when anyone walks over it, similar to NIN's AoE, fighting the server feels awful. They also need fix Plunge, killing someone with it doesn't apply the debuff to them, so you don't get the HP/MP back and the timer doesn't reset.

Comparing them isn't wrong per se, but it is always important to keep in mind the pros and cons of each. DRK's LB is as you say basically selfish, they basically just hotglue themselves to stay alive for a minimum of 10 seconds. I'd be unsure how balanced it would be to attach debuffs similar to the other tank LBs

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that DRK LB should give a buff to teammates or debuff to enemies, just pointing out that both GNB and PLD LB's can used in selfish manner or for team plays. DRK's LB biggest problem is that it is incredibly easy deny to everything about it. -DRK LB'd at full HP and did 20k damage? One recuperate and it's a measly 5k
-DRK is unkillable on the point? Just CC them for majority of their invuln and when they come out of it they will barely have any health and mana left
-DRK regen's 100% of damage dealt? Just use one of the many mitigations available to almost every class and DRK won't get enough HP back to do Shadowbringer+Bloodspiller combo. Forcing them to use recup just to get access to their one form of real damage
DRK LB just doesn't feel that good or impactful. Think about this, when you feel like you've gotten good value out of DRK's LB, how much of that was thanks to your skill as a player and how much of that was thanks to a lack of skill or negligence by the enemy team? Which isn't a problem unique to DRK by the way, SAM and to a lesser extent, RPR and BRD (though this one is because of teammates) also have LBs where other players determine how much value you can actually get out of it.

Very true, which is why DRK needs to act fast and pressure hard. Your MP just like your HP is essentially a resource for damage if you are planning to engage for a lot of pressure on enemy targets, I find myself retreating half-way to restock HP + MP with Elixir on various occasions. Doing so means retreating to my own walls, which gives me an advantage based on the game state:
- someone chasing me? They are overextending and are engaging potentially in a 1v1 with me, DRK is a surprisingly strong 1v1 job when the occasion arises.
- noone follows me? I get to replenish for free.
- multiple people chasing me? admittedly I'm screwed. :P

You can only act so fast and put out a certain amount of pressure before you're severely handicap yourself, especially since you have no escape. Which is I think RPR is just an honestly better version of DRK, they can put on a 12k shield, teleport in, death warrant someone, which results in the target either blowing their guard or eating good damage, then teleport out, Elixir and do it again. Not to mention they can build up their soul sacrifice stacks while doing so.
Even without accounting for the myriads of CC and damage the DRK will do to themselves, RPR just seems more efficient. Also I think DRK is garbage tier when it comes to 1vs1, just today I plunged a MCH at 70% HP, guy didn't even fight back and I still couldn't kill him. He just ran, not sprint, ran away while using a recup after every Bloodspiller and picked up a pot, I was insulted honestly.

That's cool, DRK is not everyone's cup of tea and that is fine. It is an incredibly difficult job to play well and the effort may not be worth the reward for many, but once properly mastered really does bring a world of pain. I would not recommend DRK for most people simply because of the effort it takes.

It is not that we forget the disgusting amount of CC, EVERY melee combat job suffers from it. Similar to my gripes with Paleistra and Cloud 9 map design, the current amount and functions of crowd control needs to be looked at. I personally am advocating for the return of Fetter Ward as a global action similar to Guard and Purify, to allow for pre-emptive CC mitigation without having to waste Guard or relying on reactive Purify. This would need to happen in conjunction with other job changes such as some Limit Break overhauls (MNK's Meteo Drive and NIN's Seiton Tenchou come to mind) as the global existence of Fetter Ward would buff certain jobs more than others.

Don't mistake me, I haven't given up on DRK, just taking a break from ranked CC in hopes that the people who know how fragile DRK is rank up .
I know every melee job suffers because the embarrassing amount of CC with no diminishing returns and the developer's brilliant idea to remove Fetterward, but DRK suffers slightly more because of the whole kill yourself mechanic. And yeah, they definitely need to do something about MNK and NIN LB, having to use recup after 1 Shadowbringer so I don't basically put myself in their instant kill HP range is beyond ridiculous.

Thanks for the tip on bypassing the character limit btw.