Should healers be designed like tanks?

[ThorneDynasty]

It did get your attention though, didn't it?

That is very close to how healer design looks, just replace the word 'damage" by "healing" and a good deal of that would apply. SE homogenized and simplified healers, and to some people this was bad. Crickets until it starts to touch other jobs.

Can we not with this childish "well those DPS/tank players didn't speak up for us so fuck them" otherization?

[Semirhage]

Can we not with this childish "well those DPS/tank players didn't speak up for us so fuck them" otherization?

Why not? I'm sitting back with my bucket of popcorn and enjoying the show. I find it hilarious that horrible oversimplified job design is now a problem when it affects tanks and DPS. Perhaps if the only role Square's designers play regularly gets a taste of it they'll finally get the issue and fix it. It's unlikely, because that would require Square's job designers to realize it negatively affects more than just the DPS. But still, I'm enjoying the ridiculous drama of it all. I *do* wish a 1-button rotation on the main job of anyone over the last three years who came into the healer subforum and scoffed at 11111111 not being "good enough" for healers. *shrug*

[Liam_Harper]

Can we not with this childish "well those DPS/tank players didn't speak up for us so fuck them" otherization?

Agreed.

As much salt as I have over the state of healing, blaming other players for not "speaking up for us" is nonsense. I solely blame the developers for this, they're paid professionals who are lucky enough to have the privilege of being one of the top MMO's on the market. They should know how to make a fun game, it's their job. I expect better than endless excuses, delayed fixes and poor quality.

I'm not going to blame Timmy the dps for not telling a multi-billion dollar company with decades of experience in game design what to do.

[GoatOfWar]

Can we not with this childish "well those DPS/tank players didn't speak up for us so fuck them" otherization?

I mean, i think it's perfectly valid. I was told to put up and shut up. I no longer play a role i am otherwise very passionate about in other games. ''Adapt or play something else'' ''Just play dps instead'' ''Then don't play'' ''We got enough healers anyway'' or my favourite ''Healers would be too difficult'' (assuming i would not be able to pull off a basic damage rotation and piss easy healing at the same time). The general demeaning and dismissive atitude that we had to deal with is something that i'm still super annoyed with tbh. You didn't help me, why should i help you?

[IDontPetLalas]

Can we not with this childish "well those DPS/tank players didn't speak up for us so fuck them" otherization?

Ignoring the "childish" comment, which is ironic considering the number of times I had to read that what you wrote before I could get what you were trying to say - I said nothing of the kind. Allow me to re-sate , since you jumped directly to the rage phase without even trying to understand what I said-

1- I said that what was posted for DPS skills is analogous ( that means similar, by the way) to how healer skills have been simplified, and when the example is shown with a DPS, people realize how bad the gameplay is
2- I then said that no one reacted until other jobs started getting touched

Now where in that to you jump to my saying "screw the other jobs, let them suffer"?. That's your own version of 1+1= 4. Don't quote me out of context, thanks.

[ThorneDynasty]

"Crickets until it starts to touch other jobs" sure didn't make it sound like free of bitterness. Who is this "people" who don't care until it happens to a DPS job? Is it people who have an opinion on a thing they do engage with, but not ones they don't, in a video game? That's how it goes. Feedback doesn't gain traction because some nebulous "people" decide to take it on themselves to voice it, it's always just players who have an opinion and the crickets. Nobody who doesn't play healers is suddenly going to become moved by the plight of the healer role because their eyes are now opened. They are just complaining about the parts of the game they do play and know becoming worse, which is completely fair.

I was maybe exaggerating your sentiment, but look at above posts and say it's not a real tribal mentality being fostered by this vague line that "other" players are somehow especially snubbing healer complaints.

[Rilifane]

I mean, i think it's perfectly valid. I was told to put up and shut up. I no longer play a role i am otherwise very passionate about in other games. ''Adapt or play something else'' ''Just play dps instead'' ''Then don't play'' ''We got enough healers anyway'' or my favourite ''Healers would be too difficult'' (assuming i would not be able to pull off a basic damage rotation and piss easy healing at the same time). The general demeaning and dismissive atitude that we had to deal with is something that i'm still super annoyed with tbh. You didn't help me, why should i help you?

I completely understand being annoyed at people who told you to shut up and just deal with it because they're having fun so it's obviously all good but then throwing a huge temper tantrum when their precious role gets touched as well.
But I also think it's not helping one bit, it only creates a rift between players of different roles that shouldn't be there, the "us vs them" mentality.

What matters is that the players of the role, the veteran healers, have spoken up for years but got ignored by the devs. Over and over. A tank or a dps player feeling our plight isn't and shouldn't be something that is required for them to finally pay attention. It's not the "others" not speaking up for us that made us land where we are - that is exclusively on the devs. They have been provided all they need but refused to listen.
I can't stand the dismissive attitude some people have but I'd rather not stoop to that level.
The healer disaster is not their fault, it's SE's. They need to listen and fix it, as payed professionals. Bad attitudes are a different kind of problem.

[GoatOfWar]

"Crickets until it starts to touch other jobs" sure didn't make it sound like free of bitterness. Who is this "people" who don't care until it happens to a DPS job? Is it people who have an opinion on a thing they do engage with, but not ones they don't, in a video game? That's how it goes. Feedback doesn't gain traction because some nebulous "people" decide to take it on themselves to voice it, it's always just players who have an opinion and the crickets. Nobody who doesn't play healers is suddenly going to become moved by the plight of the healer role because their eyes are now opened. They are just complaining about the parts of the game they do play and know becoming worse, which is completely fair.

I was maybe exaggerating your sentiment, but look at above posts and say it's not a real tribal mentality being fostered by this vague line that "other" players are somehow especially snubbing healer complaints.

Just gonna assume you refered to my post. I am not encouraging tribalism. I'm just indifferent because indifference was all i got in response to my complaints too.

[IDontPetLalas]

"Crickets until it starts to touch other jobs" sure didn't make it sound like free of bitterness. Who is this "people" who don't care until it happens to a DPS job? Is it people who have an opinion on a thing they do engage with, but not ones they don't, in a video game? That's how it goes. Feedback doesn't gain traction because some nebulous "people" decide to take it on themselves to voice it, it's always just players who have an opinion and the crickets. Nobody who doesn't play healers is suddenly going to become moved by the plight of the healer role because their eyes are now opened. They are just complaining about the parts of the game they do play and know becoming worse, which is completely fair.

I was maybe exaggerating your sentiment, but look at above posts and say it's not a real tribal mentality being fostered by this vague line that "other" players are somehow especially snubbing healer complaints.

At the risk of repeating myself, "bitterness" is your interpretation. It was a statement of facts. The metrics do not lie: there are easily hundreds of posts generally (but not exclusively) from healers yet there are almost no slides or live letter responses to healer feedback regarding changes to healer jobs. There is no dedicated healer designer.

You can interpret "people" however you wish. Should players who don't play healers care about whether healers want changes? Whom am I to say- practically speaking, some of them probably don't until it's harder to find one until they need one. Is this "snubbing" healer complaints? I have never thought of it that way, and I honestly can say that I don't see what tribal mentality you're talking about. What tribe lmao? If you think that I place more credence about healer changes from those people who main healers- yes, I do - but I don't forget that all jobs are supposed to interact with each other.

[Shikiseki]

I feel like giving a simple damage rotation like tanks have would be a great boon to the healing experience.

You wouldn't even need your abilities to just heal as well - I'll take Scholar for example:
They could take the Summoner rework as a base, featuring GCD summons (in this case Eos or Selene) that would alternate like Bahamut/Phoenix Summon while both Fairies switching a couple spells to do slightly different stuff like the carbuncle attacks. You'd just have to attach the current embrace potency to those "attacks" that will automatically heal whoever is lowest on HP as they would already do. Once you use both fairies once, you get access to seraph who's just the same on steroids (if you're lazy, you could just slap both fairies effects into one)

That simple "summon" rotation would immediately refresh the gameplay of a healer because they have way more to do other than press 1 and wait to use the right ogcd when the party gets hit. Now that would reduce the amount of OGCD buttons but that is something that has to happen sooner or later...

> BUT that would make scholar like SGE!!! --> well tell me where they already aren't almost carbon copies already....

Another example would be AST: They could get their sects back to temporarily enhance their basic heals (so scrapping the separate buttons for aspected heals already) - each sect is readily available when the other one is finished so you'd not really have to be without one realistically. On top of that, the sects could interact like pvp doublecast on malefic which diurnal could proc the next benefic/helios to turn into ogcd once and nocturnal to be instant shields instead once. Endless possibilities if you work with "stance" buffs and reduce the amount of ogcds. Also more abilities could be like Earthly star imo.

Even something "pure" as the WHM has potential: they could build up a light gauge and unleash it with a massive healing aura while you can smite your enemies with blasts of holy or lilybeams for a short amount of time. Something to spice things up every once in a while


tl;dr - tank like rotations for healers would be a boon to the 1 spam if done right