On Azem's role in the story

[RyuDragnier]

That's actually what I mean by shooting for a third answer. If you go for 'Azem was off fighting The Real Threat', then it paints both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides as wrong because they were fighting over something smaller. It's the same issue as if we learned Azem was pursuing a perfect medium option that wouldn't have required Zodiark sacrifices or the Sundering.

It's a permutation of something that I find plagues a lot of games with multiple endings; the existence of a 'true ending' (either in terms of 'everyone's happy' or 'this one has the real final boss') demotes all other options to 'false endings'. Which sucks if you think one of those false endings was the one with the right ideas.

It doesn't paint the two sides as wrong for fighting over something smaller. They were still deciding the fate of many souls on the star, something really huge by anybody's standards. What it does do however, is make it so there was never going to be a happy ending. If Zodiark/Hydaelyn won, the big threat was still going to sacrifice the souls of the Ancients (in some manner). If said threat is dealt with and Zodiark/Hydaelyn wins, souls are sacrificed. There is no True Ending or Golden Ending in this scenario, it's merely a case of "Who do you choose to let die, Azem? Yourself and your fellow Ancients, the ones already sacrificed to Zodiark, or the souls of the new life?"

[Vyrerus]

That wasn't hard.

It's not a matter of how you could write around it. It's a matter of they already wrote too much to needlessly retcon to write around it.

Look at the Tales in the Shadows, "Through His Eyes." From that you learn Hades and Hythlodaeus both have, "Underworld Vision." They can see see souls drifting in the air, and what's more, they can discern between them. They can even tell when they're being subjected to the pull of the Underworld.

This implies that they see souls drifting, intangible, all of the time. What special thing then, to make Hythlodaeus pause and care? Personal Acquaintance with the soul in question.

[Cleretic]

It doesn't paint the two sides as wrong for fighting over something smaller. They were still deciding the fate of many souls on the star, something really huge by anybody's standards. What it does do however, is make it so there was never going to be a happy ending. If Zodiark/Hydaelyn won, the big threat was still going to sacrifice the souls of the Ancients (in some manner). If said threat is dealt with and Zodiark/Hydaelyn wins, souls are sacrificed. There is no True Ending or Golden Ending in this scenario, it's merely a case of "Who do you choose to let die, Azem? Yourself and your fellow Ancients, the ones already sacrificed to Zodiark, or the souls of the new life?"

That actually does still read as both sides being blind to the real threat.

I don't think it's impossible to say Azem isn't off doing good in fight-y ways. I think there's perfectly valid motivation in being, essentially, the person who cares for the home front while everyone is busy; no matter who wins, it'd suck to come back home to see that it all burned down while they were gone. But the thing Azem's fighting can't be bigger than the central conflict, or else it makes everyone participating in the central conflict look stupid for not noticing. And if Azem tells absolutely nobody about it like by all appearances they did... well, then Azem had better have a damn good reason or two (much like Venat did when keeping quiet about the End of Days), or else Azem looks even worse.

If Azem is fighting something, that something can't be of a larger scale. That doesn't mean it can't be important, but we're looking less at a scale of 'another MSQ' and more like, say, a raid storyline; the Omega investigation to the Z/H conflict's Stormblood MSQ. ...which Pandaemonium would theoretically be perfect for, except for the part where it's taking place before Azem split.

[Lyth]

Never be afraid to question your starting postulates. How do we actually know when Azem split? Remember that we've already encountered a dog-like familiar that can form reflections of himself and rejoin back together at will.

Either way, many things become more evident with time. At times like these, I find it best to just kick back and enjoy the show.

[Cleretic]

Never be afraid to question your starting postulates. How do we actually know when Azem split? Remember that we've already encountered a dog-like familiar that can form reflections of himself and rejoin back together at will.

Either way, many things become more evident with time. At times like these, I find it best to just kick back and enjoy the show.

I should say by 'split' I mean went 'I'm outta here' and left the Convocation, not 'split' as in 'sundered'. Azem leaving happened sometime after the End of Days started hitting, while Pandaemonium seems to be slightly after the events of Elpis itself. I'm willing to rethink either of those points with good reason to, but that's what all evidence suggests.

[Lyth]

So that raises other questions as well. When exactly did Azem leave the Convocation? When exactly did the Final Days occur relative to both Elpis and Emet's reconstructed Amaurot? Your assumed sequence of events is the most likely logical interpretation, but it's not the only one. And I'm sure that this raid tier still has secrets to tell.

Most of the information that we have about Azem's departure comes from Emet's reconstruction of Amaurot. The most interesting part is the recording in Anyder, where Venat's group states that Azem is not contactable. Which again raises the question: where are they? And do they even exist in that particular point in the timeline?

[SannaR]

Well what we do know about Azem's quitting of the Convocation is that it happened before the summoning of Zodiark as the decision to do so is what causes them to "turn traitor". Now all we can assume they were still around post Zodiark summoning that gave the planet's healing a jump start or I doubt Venat would have tried to reach out to them if they were somehow off world or already dead at the time. We also know that by the time Elpis happens they are already Azem and the Volcano incident already happened. Along with at least one not mentioned other incident as the Volcano was the 2nd time Azem came close that we know of being kicked out.

[Alleo]

I do find it a little odd how much they seem to have dug into the perspective of Azem being "us" to a point that they're being insanely vague and open-ended about them when they've stressed that having the same soul =/= being the same person, which Ardbert and Fandaniel already demonstrated.

I would've rather had them be a distinct, clearly defined character like the mentioned because I never really cared to insert my own head canons into a character who by the game's reasoning thus far is not us...and I pray it stays that way.

Yeah them trying to "hide" most of Azem just makes it feel like we should just see them as we want to see them. But they are their own character, they are not us. Heck I would be fine if they even did not look like us at all since Ardbert also does not necessarily look like us either. Yet seemingly Elpis hints that we do look the same.

I really wonder if we learn more about them in the raids or if they will stay in the shadows.

[Lyth]

Emet's reconstructed Amaurot occurs at a time when the Final Days have started but Zodiark has not yet been summoned. The Amaurotian citizens speak of Azem's departure in vague terms, as if it is just a rumor. The exception is Hyth 2.0, but he's also not strictly acting in keeping with the timeline and is aware about the events that play out following Zodiark's summoning.

Here's what we know:

• The specifics of Azem's departure from the Convocation are not public knowledge
• Azem's departure happens sometime between the events of Pandaemonium and Emet's 'remembered' Amaurot inclusive
• Azem is not contactable by Venat's group prior to Hydaelyn's summoning

With regards to Pandaemonium itself, we know that an unmarked memory stone (likely the precursor to Lahabrea) appeared to the Aitiascope scientists in the present day aetherial sea as if thrown. That's a second, independent link between past and present that didn't involve our own gate in through the Crystal Tower. So it looks like there's might be a second time loop here, and another potential reason for Azem to be in absentia.

And then there's the looming question on how the Final Days of Amaurot even started, given that the index transformation shouldn't be able to occur under normal circumstances. Of course, if you were to take a hemitheos...

[Kesey]

See, I've always read this instead as a way to write Azem out of the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, without making the fact that they're not involved a plot hook. 'They'd be doing what you'd be doing' (they gave examples, and they were all stuff like 'crafting' or 'building a house', nothing suggesting importance) seems like a pretty easy way to write out the player insert without making their absence too alarming.

This is funny, because I finished Endwalker and my mind was like they didn't tell us very much about Azem at all. Then I thought why didn't they just do a lucid echo (like lucid dreaming) where the main character became Azem and did the Elpis thing and they would just have the illusion of control until they wake up. Then I wondered what you did above and what was the sticking point to why there is more to this is Azem in my mind, during what is probably the most pivotal point of Ancient history, is blowing off their former mentor/teacher and their two best friends. And given the scope of what everyone else is dealing with you expect think Azem would blow them (their best friends and mentor!) off to planet a garden or fish or decorate a home or collect mounts/minions or gamble at a gold saucer like place?

No something more is at hand here, because Azem's true power is friendship and they wouldn't abandon their friends.

But then the live letter comes along, and for some reason you glossed over the phrases "the seat of Azem was doing during the Final Days is a secret" and "However, we do have some idea of what they were up to" which confirms that something else is definitely going on.

And when he uses the phrase "one that may or may not be revealed in the future," is the tease that it is coming much further on in the story (taken with the fact this was the 10 year vision live letter).

And friend, if you read this line "Whatever you imagine you would’ve done if you were Azem is probably the closest we can get to the truth. (laughs)" as to produce your answer above, remember that laugh was sarcastic. Meaning, in the meantime, tell yourself that Azem was crafting or building a house but in the future it is something and here is the hint to let you know.