An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Chezen]

I'm fine with Yoshi-P's idea. I don't want to see a penalty that costs you points. I had that in another game I played and I didn't consider it a part that added to my fun. In fact, I would stop playing for days if I lost a significant amount. It's just difficult to go back to something thats supposed to be fun when all of your hard work goes down the drain.

I honestly feel the danger enough. In group play, I avoid dying just because it's a burden to the group. When soloing, because it's a time sink, and because it's not exactly what I'm here for lol. It's hard to feel like the hero adventurer if you are always dying.

Edit: I love the thought of helping people out with Raise.

[Ark_mage2]

Those new Raise spells sound like they would go great with a new White Mage class!

... on a more serious note, it seems like SE has put a lot of thought into their proposed solution and it sounds like a welcomed improvement.

[JayvirDeforte]

IF the Physical Level stays, then I believe there could be an XP loss but not an SP loss. If XP is tossed, then I don't think that there should be any SP/XP loss. I do think that the new death penalty idea is a start and Return costing 0 is a great start. Maybe it could work by having us run to an inn in the city to fully recover since the inns are not used anyways. How's that for incentive? Maybe a camp could partially restore the status...

Edit: On second thought... making gear be destroyed upon 0% would be a fantastic idea

[AlexiaKidd]

This is an excellent idea that was posted earlier in the thread but I fear it will get lost in the sea of posts so going to stick it back here as SE seem to be watching now, it might give them some idea's.

Upon some more reflection, I agree that rewarding people with the "staying alive" bonus for being AFK or just for not playing in a while is a bad idea. My initial outline was also a tad too complex. It could use some simplifying.

As far as it being too easy to die and being really hard to achieve the "still alive" buff, that's sort of what I was going for. I wanted to make it relatively rare to have, so that you don't see everyone and their mother running around with the buff active. I also wanted the buff to not be that strong, so that it's not so bad when you lose it, but I still wanted the player to feel the sting of the loss of all that invested time.

I've rethought my idea and think that a hybrid of mine(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post21748) and Stilla's (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/2097-An-open-discsusion-on-the-consequences-of-death?p=21796#post21796)idea would be interesting.

New Take on Death Penalty:

All SP that you gain as a battle class also contributes to fill up a separate rank up bar that has 5 tiers: rank 1 - 5.

Each rank takes 20,000 SP to reach, so to reach Rank 5, you'd need to accumulate 100,000 SP as any combination of battle classes without dying.

There are six bonus buffs that you can choose from: +5% atk, +5% def, +5% m.atk, +5% m.def, +5% eva, +5% acc, -10%MP cost, +10%TP gain, +2%SP gain

At Rank 4, you can choose one. At Rank 5, you can choose two, and you also get some sort of visual enhancement to your character to indicate your lack of dying. You can change your buffs around at anytime, but there is a 30 min cooldown.

If you die:
You lose 2 ranks
You lose 3 anima
You are inflicted with Weakness

If you die and get Raised:
You lose 1 rank
You are inflicted with Weakness

Again, I want the number of Rank 5 status people to be rare, and to actually be an indicator of skill, because it's hard to earn, and takes the same amount of effort to reach as going from class rank 49 to 50. That way, losing your rank 5 status is also a bit of a sting.

I also realize that some classes like tanks and mages are going to be more susceptible to death than other classes, but hey, those are the inherent risks that come with those classes, so you just grin and bear it.

[Kiko]

i am with all the future pernalty but 1... and thats is sp/xp pernalty... in reason why ppl was mad on ffxi was because of that system not because of dyin or anything like that... 2 things that most of ppl hated from xi... #1 waiting hrs for a party to lvl... and #2 loosing precious xp cuz u died... specially when some1 else mess up for the party... the whole reason or idea of loosin sp and xp is not a good idea guys... (just sayin in case u guys have that on mind ;-) )

[Nephera]

Upon some more reflection, I agree that rewarding people with the "staying alive" bonus for being AFK or just for not playing in a while is a bad idea. My initial outline was also a tad too complex. It could use some simplifying.

As far as it being too easy to die and being really hard to achieve the "still alive" buff, that's sort of what I was going for. I wanted to make it relatively rare to have, so that you don't see everyone and their mother running around with the buff active. I also wanted the buff to not be that strong, so that it's not so bad when you lose it, but I still wanted the player to feel the sting of the loss of all that invested time.

I've rethought my idea and think that a hybrid of mine(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post21748) and Stilla's (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/2097-An-open-discsusion-on-the-consequences-of-death?p=21796#post21796)idea would be interesting.

New Take on Death Penalty:

All SP that you gain as a battle class also contributes to fill up a separate rank up bar that has 5 tiers: rank 1 - 5.

Each rank takes 20,000 SP to reach, so to reach Rank 5, you'd need to accumulate 100,000 SP as any combination of battle classes without dying.

There are six bonus buffs that you can choose from: +5% atk, +5% def, +5% m.atk, +5% m.def, +5% eva, +5% acc, -10%MP cost, +10%TP gain, +2%SP gain

At Rank 4, you can choose one. At Rank 5, you can choose two, and you also get some sort of visual enhancement to your character to indicate your lack of dying. You can change your buffs around at anytime, but there is a 30 min cooldown.

If you die:
You lose 2 ranks
You lose 3 anima
You are inflicted with Weakness

If you die and get Raised:
You lose 1 rank
You are inflicted with Weakness

Again, I want the number of Rank 5 status people to be rare, and to actually be an indicator of skill, because it's hard to earn, and takes the same amount of effort to reach as going from class rank 49 to 50. That way, losing your rank 5 status is also a bit of a sting.

I also realize that some classes like tanks and mages are going to be more susceptible to death than other classes, but hey, those are the inherent risks that come with those classes, so you just grin and bear it.

ah you could call these brave/faith ranks.

I'm liking yoshida's solution though i'm wondering what he means by repair support.

[Verecund]

right now there is a reason to die > coffee break + toilet

rofl... this is 100% truth

[Choc]

i am with all the future pernalty but 1... and thats is sp/xp pernalty... in reason why ppl was mad on ffxi was because of that system not because of dyin or anything like that... 2 things that most of ppl hated from xi... #1 waiting hrs for a party to lvl... and #2 loosing precious xp cuz u died... specially when some1 else mess up for the party... the whole reason or idea of loosin sp and xp is not a good idea guys... (just sayin in case u guys have that on mind ;-) )

Most people whine about something because its inconveniant or makes it harder on them. But you cant always listen to what the players want. People whine about cost of things in game, sp/xp gain, travel times, etc. The last thing you want is everyone to be unstoppable killing machines capable of doing anything in the game by themselves.

Just because people complain about something doesnt mean that it isnt necessary. Im not saying sp penalty is required or should be in the game, I do think it should be considered though.

[Kaedan]

That is another good argument for not enforcing an overly strict death penalty.

I tend to play a mage in most games I play. In group play, it's very easy for mages to die. Especially when people in the party are stupid. For example... I'm a Conjurer, and right before a fight in Behest, I buff up the whole party with Prot, Shell, Shock Spikes and SS. However, it's inevitable that some moron will rush in and aggro before I'm finished. In case you didn't know, AoE party buffs are a HUGE hate spike for mobs. So when that moron goes rushing in, all the mobs rush for me and I die.

The point is, quite often by no fault of your own, you can die in group play. This was also a problem in FFXI. You get one idiot in your party and he ruins the whole experience for everyone else. So that is an argument against severe death penalties.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a significant death penalty, but some of the suggestions here are far too severe. At the moment, the death penalty is fairly decent but could use a little "umph". The "zombie attack" cycle that Yoshi-P mentions doesn't really happen all that much... the weakness is enough to pretty much prevent you from rejoining a significant group fight, since if you grab aggro you're assured to die again.

But I don't have a problem with the gear damage. However, I would actually prefer an SP loss, with buyback. Treat it much like Aion does. Every time you die, you lose SP... say 5%. However, you could go to an Aetheryte crystal and pay to get back a portion, or even all of it. As for how to pay... if you don't want to use Gil, you could use Anima.

Alternatively, you could make it so you lose Anima upon death.

The key is finding a balance... too harsh of penalties will turn off casual players. Too lax of penalties will turn off hardcore players.

[Choc]

That is another good argument for not enforcing an overly strict death penalty.

I tend to play a mage in most games I play. In group play, it's very easy for mages to die. Especially when people in the party are stupid. For example... I'm a Conjurer, and right before a fight in Behest, I buff up the whole party with Prot, Shell, Shock Spikes and SS. However, it's inevitable that some moron will rush in and aggro before I'm finished. In case you didn't know, AoE party buffs are a HUGE hate spike for mobs. So when that moron goes rushing in, all the mobs rush for me and I die.

The point is, quite often by no fault of your own, you can die in group play. This was also a problem in FFXI. You get one idiot in your party and he ruins the whole experience for everyone else. So that is an argument against severe death penalties.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a significant death penalty, but some of the suggestions here are far too severe. At the moment, the death penalty is fairly decent but could use a little "umph". The "zombie attack" cycle that Yoshi-P mentions doesn't really happen all that much... the weakness is enough to pretty much prevent you from rejoining a significant group fight, since if you grab aggro you're assured to die again.

But I don't have a problem with the gear damage. However, I would actually prefer an SP loss, with buyback. Treat it much like Aion does. Every time you die, you lose SP... say 5%. However, you could go to an Aetheryte crystal and pay to get back a portion, or even all of it. As for how to pay... if you don't want to use Gil, you could use Anima.

Alternatively, you could make it so you lose Anima upon death.

The key is finding a balance... too harsh of penalties will turn off casual players. Too lax of penalties will turn off hardcore players.

Well you probably shouldnt be buffing before behests. The are insanely easy to do solo, having 8 people on those people are unlikely to even fall below 80% hp, so its kind of a waste of time also the buffs dont help all that much and only last 5 mins.

But the death "penalty" currently is nowhere near enough. You get reduced stats and hp for a couple minutes, not really anything to worry about unless you have everyone weakened, which still doesnt matter too much since it may already be almost off by the time you get back to where you died. Yoshi mentioned "death porting" as a big reason he wants to change this, as people should not be intentionally dying. Weaknesses or status reductions dont do anything for that although he mentioned they might make return cost 0 anima. Still it proves the fact that nobody cares at all about dying.

SP penalty doesnt need to be anything drastic, something like 1,000 sp would encourage people not to die as every little bit helps, but thats really only a few kills anyway. Unless your chain dying I dont see how that would handicap anyone. If they fixed our economy I could see some sort of money sink as another viable option though.