What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kazemon15]

Of course she is evil. You can't look at a character killing a whole race of people and then say "oh that wasn't evil because she meant well". No matter how much media likes to push the approach of "the end justifies the means", no, it doesn't. It absolutely doesn't.

Otherwise that guy pushing the button in The Dead Ends to kill everyone on his planet also isn't evil because he meant well and ended the war. Sure he meant well, but it's still evil. And unlike Hydaelyn he still has his "I...killed everyone..." moment. How mysterious.

And even if you think murder isn't evil enough, she is pretty darn evil on a personal scale too. Sure, the WoL has devolved into a pretty mindless muppet at this point, but it's important to point out that we only got to that point because she manipulated, lied and tampered with them from the very start. But if that still isn't evil enough, how about deleting every trace of her own people's culture from the face of the planet? Making a flesh puppet (forum alt) to talk through by killing a girl and then discarding her once she is done? How about not being interested in all the shards and what happens to them unless provoked into action?
How about her own servants on the moon? The Watcher doesn't have memories of his past life as she intentionally didn't give him any, basically being a glorified familiar. And the loporrits, even if the are annoying as heck, never got any communication from her for 12k years while she was apparently able to talk to Sharlayan. Didn't even send them a message. I guess it was funnier to watch their rabbit hearts explode when they realized they built everything wrong.

But I guess that's all benevolent gentleness. After all she speaks with a soft and calm voice.

I was under the impression according to Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch's explanation is that people weren't killed when the sundering happened, just their souls were split. All the current shards that happened right after had all the remaining people were identical in appearance/intelligence/ect (when he demonstrated on Ryne) but had forgotten about being long lived beings or about their past and whatnot and then they just died due to the normal things like happenings of war, sickness or old age. I don't see how that is "killing everyone."

What Venat did was the same exact thing as what God did when he cast Adam and Eve out of paradise for not learning and heeding His lessons. She tried reasoning with them and making them learn, they refused, so they were cast out of paradise (Unsundered world). Minfilia is akin to what happened to Jesus. God also flooded the entire world in what He deemed to be a greater good for the world. Yet I don't see people ranting about how God is evil for doing that.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

I was under the impression according to Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch's explanation is that people weren't killed when the sundering happened, just their souls were split. All the current shards that happened right after had all the remaining people were identical in appearance/intelligence/ect (when he demonstrated on Ryne) but had forgotten about being long lived beings or about their past and whatnot and then they just died due to the normal things like happenings of war, sickness or old age. I don't see how that is "killing everyone."

What Venat did was the same exact thing as what God did when he cast Adam and Eve out of paradise for not learning and heeding His lessons. She tried reasoning with them and making them learn, they refused, so they were cast out of paradise (Unsundered world). Minfilia is akin to what happened to Jesus. God also flooded the entire world in what He deemed to be a greater good for the world. Yet I don't see people ranting about how God is evil for doing that.

Hydaelyn is not a goddess, she is just a woman with a particularly large ego who is convinced that she knows better than anyone ever.

[Kazemon15]

Hydaelyn is not a goddess, she is just a woman with a particularly large ego who is convinced that she knows better than anyone ever.

Again, what is the difference? It's okay for God to do it because He's a God? How do we know the Unsundered people aren't considered Gods in this story and she just happens to be one of them? They were creating life with just their wills and magic, just like a divine being would. That sounds pretty Godly to me. We don't know much about the ancients to deem whether or not they were Godly beings or not.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming Venat. If you wanna blame her, anyone who is religious needs to look to their own religious figures and well and question that.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

Again, what is the difference? It's okay for God to do it because He's a God? How do we know the Unsundered people aren't considered Gods in this story and she just happens to be one of them? They were creating life with just their wills and magic, just like a divine being would. That sounds pretty Godly to me. We don't know much about the ancients to deem whether or not they were Godly beings or not.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of blaming Venat. If you wanna blame her, anyone who is religious needs to look to their own religious figures and well and question that.

Bless your soul, I don't know how to break this to you ... but when everyone is what we consider a "god" nobody is.
But when you just murderize everyone to reduce them to a lesser state of being and are effectively the last one of your people who could do all those miraculous things, and then elevate yourself into godhood when nobody asked for it...that is what is called a big dang ego.

[Jagick]

I was under the impression according to Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch's explanation is that people weren't killed when the sundering happened, just their souls were split. All the current shards that happened right after had all the remaining people were identical in appearance/intelligence/ect (when he demonstrated on Ryne) but had forgotten about being long lived beings or about their past and whatnot and then they just died due to the normal things like happenings of war, sickness or old age. I don't see how that is "killing everyone."

What Venat did was the same exact thing as what God did when he cast Adam and Eve out of paradise for not learning and heeding His lessons. She tried reasoning with them and making them learn, they refused, so they were cast out of paradise (Unsundered world). Minfilia is akin to what happened to Jesus. God also flooded the entire world in what He deemed to be a greater good for the world. Yet I don't see people ranting about how God is evil for doing that.

If you vaporize my dog to create like 13-14 completely different clones of her that exist on completely different worlds with different personalities and I neither remember her nor does she remember me, not even considering different timelines for all these worlds apparently, yeah. Yeah I'd just about say you killed my actual original dog. I don't care if all those others have a fragment of her soul or whatever nonsense. It's not actually her.

I'm not going to get into the can of worms that is IRL religion.

[aveyond-dreams]

I was under the impression according to Shadowbringers and Emet-Selch's explanation is that people weren't killed when the sundering happened, just their souls were split. All the current shards that happened right after had all the remaining people were identical in appearance/intelligence/ect (when he demonstrated on Ryne) but had forgotten about being long lived beings or about their past and whatnot and then they just died due to the normal things like happenings of war, sickness or old age. I don't see how that is "killing everyone."

We know this to not be the case, as pictured here:



This depiction is canon, and so we know that the Sundering unravelled the Ancients to the point where they had to re-evolve into the spoken races of the world. This transformation is so drastic and erased all but the faintest memories of the unsundered world, so I don't know what else you could call it.

What Venat did was the same exact thing as what God did when he cast Adam and Eve out of paradise for not learning and heeding His lessons. She tried reasoning with them and making them learn, they refused, so they were cast out of paradise (Unsundered world). Minfilia is akin to what happened to Jesus. God also flooded the entire world in what He deemed to be a greater good for the world. Yet I don't see people ranting about how God is evil for doing that.

The comparison of Hydaelyn to the Christian God is not an accurate one. Hydaelyn has demonstrated the qualities of pride and vanity in the face of the tragedy of the Final Days. By comparison, the Ancients around her were operating on logic while she attempted to preach to them about her ideals in the face of the most painful moment of their lives.

Needless to say it did not go down well. Who is she to preach to them? At that moment she certainly wasn't a being above them like the Christian God was to Adam and Eve.

Pair these qualities with her rebellion against the actual God that halted the final days, Zodiark, then what is she if not a fallen angel? Her actions and that of her biblical analogue condemned humanity to a spiral of suffering. We fought her on a literal lake of ice. Cold and beautiful, very accurate for this sort of villainous entity.

[Kazemon15]

We know this to not be the case, as pictured here:



This depiction is canon, and so we know that the Sundering unravelled the Ancients to the point where they had to re-evolve into the spoken races of the world. This transformation is so drastic and erased all but the faintest memories of the unsundered world, so I don't know what else you could call it.



The comparison of Hydaelyn to the Christian God is not an accurate one. Hydaelyn has demonstrated the qualities of pride and vanity in the face of the tragedy of the Final Days. By comparison, the Ancients around her were operating on logic while she attempted to preach to them about her ideals in the face of the most painful moment of their lives.

Needless to say it did not go down well. Who is she to preach to them? At that moment she certainly wasn't a being above them like the Christian God was to Adam and Eve.

Pair these qualities with her rebellion against the actual God that halted the final days, Zodiark, then what is she if not a fallen angel? Her actions and that of her biblical analogue condemned humanity to a spiral of suffering. We fought her on a literal lake of ice. Cold and beautiful, very accurate for this sort of villainous entity.

Yeah I don't consider a picture from a random youtube channel to be canon unless you can link me to the story on the actual SE site where it says this.

Emet-Selch said himself this:

(Im not sure how to link pictures here in case this isnt showing up:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw971lybm7...t%204.jpg?dl=0

[Lauront]

Yeah I don't consider a picture from a random youtube channel to be canon unless you can link me to the story on the actual SE site where it says this.

Emet-Selch said himself this:

(Im not sure how to link pictures here in case this isnt showing up:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vw971lybm7...t%204.jpg?dl=0

It doesn't matter if you consider it to be canon or not. It is depicted from a crossover event in that game, which Ishikawa herself authored.

Your screenshot doesn't support what you're saying, either. He just says 'appearance' there. I don't have the EN version to hand, so I am going to quote from the FR one:

Emet-Selch : En tant que garde-fou de Zordiarche, Hydaelyn était dotée de capacités tout bonnement extraordinaires.
= “As Zodiark’s safeguard, Hydaelyn was endowed with simply extraordinary capabilities.”

[14:00] Emet-Selch : Des attaques qui, en plus de toucher l'enveloppe matérielle de l'adversaire, tranchaient jusqu'à son essence même... C'était du jamais vu.
= “Attacks that, in addition to touching the material envelope (body) of the opponent, cut to its very essence… It was never seen before.”

[14:00] Emet-Selch : Supposons que vous subissiez un tel assaut. Vous seriez alors scindée en deux personnes distinctes.
= “Suppose you were subject to such an assault. You would then be divided into two separate persons.”

[14:00] Emet-Selch : Vos incarnations se ressembleraient comme deux gouttes d'eau, mais chacune ne posséderait plus que la moitié de ce qui vous constitue, que ce soit votre force, votre intelligence, ou votre âme.
= “Your incarnations would be like two drops of water, but each one would possess only half of what constitutes you, whether it be your strength, your intelligence, or your soul.”

[14:00] Emet-Selch : C'est ce qui est arrivé à Zordiarche, et à cette planète tout entière.
= “That is what happened to Zodiark, and this entire planet.”

The EN version is the same, and someone else can supply the remaining screenshots for it.

[Kazemon15]

It doesn't matter if you consider it to be canon or not. It is depicted from a crossover event in that game, which Ishikawa herself authored.

Your screenshots don't support what you're saying, either. He just says 'appearance' there. I don't have the EN version to hand, so I am going to quote from the FR one:



The EN version is the same, and someone else can supply screenshots for it.

You mentioned in another post he didn't say they were identical, yet I just showed a screencap saying that they were, even using Ryne as an example. Which is what I had said in my previous post.

Yeah, well crossover games, why not add them to the actual canon story then?

Venat herself said there was no kindness or justice in the things she had did, yet everyone here is talking about how she intentionally did it with malicious intent, and therefore, she's this evil being with no black or white morality. The entire story is not black or white. It's a muddled gray area. All the characters are "evil" to some extent. No one is entirely "good." But blaming Venat for all the evils in the world certainly isn't fair or right, especially when the circumstances of not understanding Hermes's grief of death caused him to go overboard. It doesn't make him right either. None were right, but none were intentionally evil either.

[Tama-Kanzashi]

You mentioned in another post he didn't say they were identical, yet I just showed a screencap saying that they were, even using Ryne as an example. Which is what I had said in my previous post.

Yeah, well crossover games, why not add them to the actual canon story then?

Venat herself said there was no kindness or justice in the things she had did, yet everyone here is talking about how she intentionally did it with malicious intent, and therefore, she's this evil being with no black or white morality. The entire story is not black or white. It's a muddled gray area. All the characters are "evil" to some extent. No one is entirely "good." But blaming Venat for all the evils in the world certainly isn't fair or right, especially when the circumstances of not understanding Hermes's grief of death caused him to go overboard. It doesn't make him right either. None were right, but none were intentionally evil either.

Would you rather he actually sundered Ryne to show how it worked? Or have you considered that maybe he just knows that there is a good chance that we will not understand the details of sundering? Do you always take everything you see at absolute face value without putting a bit of thought into it?