Tempering? (Spoilers)

[TheMightyMollusk]

Notice the mechanic of Susano's summoning. If he is a primal, he was not summoned with the intentionally flawed ascian methid, this lets him be not unto a hole in the world consuming everything, and also not leaking in such a way as to temper those around him.

If we allow this as a possibility, then the 4 lords (5?) who gained power slowly and transformed into primals after such a very very long time are not tempering for the same reasons. They say they are not primals, but as the very definition of primal includes tempering and an endless hunger for aether, can we really blame them for having this small mistake?

For a third example, I give you Enkidu.

Susano appears in Endwalker alongside all of the other primals to help power the Ragnarok, even being one of the only two (alongside Garuda) to get any lines. So, although he may not be summoned through the Ascian method, he IS a primal.

The Four Lords are not considered primals. Nothing summoned them, and they have distinct physical bodies, rather than an aether construct mimicking a body.

Enkidu doesn't stick around long enough to have a chance to temper anyone but Gilgamesh. And since Greg's from another world across the Rift, he may not even be vulnerable to tempering in the first place. It's vague and (due to being a comedic side quest) will probably never be explained.

[RyuDragnier]

More my own theorizing but how much of Hydaelyn was actually a Primal and how much was just

Venat's own natural Ancient transformation ability (think Emet and his 'Hades' transformation at the end of ShB) is a very good question. Personally I think it was a combination of both (Hydaelyn's form taking on Venat's perfered transformation appearence), but provided with considerably more aether that empowered her as a Primal (and allowed the Sundering to even occur).

It would go a lot of the way to explaining why Hydaelyn did not temper, and not just by design - she had no reason to (Zodiark's tempering was something of a mistake, and later Primals had the tempering effect added in deliberately by the Ascians as "extra code" if you will.

But that's just my own theory so please by all means, tear it apart!

But was Zodiark's tempering by mistake? Remember how Hesperos in Pandaemonium acts really obsessed with Lahabrea, to the point where it almost seems like he was tempered? Hell, his eyes even glow with an aura that reminds me of the tempering eyes we've seen before. Maybe the tempering wasn't a mistake, but something Lahabrea deliberately put in to guarantee nobody would falter, that there would be no mistakes, no wandering thoughts that could alter Zodiark's creation.

[Cleretic]

But was Zodiark's tempering by mistake? Remember how Hesperos in Pandaemonium acts really obsessed with Lahabrea, to the point where it almost seems like he was tempered? Hell, his eyes even glow with an aura that reminds me of the tempering eyes we've seen before. Maybe the tempering wasn't a mistake, but something Lahabrea deliberately put in to guarantee nobody would falter, that there would be no mistakes, no wandering thoughts that could alter Zodiark's creation.

I think Hesperos is crazy for other reasons. Some related to the fact he's a vampire, others just motivating his decision to become a vampire. I don't think he needs us to invent more reasons he's crazy.

Our source that tempering is innate is Livingway, and as much as Livingway has a problem with understatements, she is always correct as far as stated facts goes, so Zodiark was almost definitely not artificially tempering more than he 'should' have. We don't know enough about Lahabrea at the time to say he isn't some kinda shady, so maybe he was aware of the possibility but ignored it, or possibly neglected safety procedures that would've stopped that, but he didn't jack up tempering specifically for Zodiark.

[CrownySuccubus]

I wonder if the opposite is true for those whose aether is tempered by a being that is astrally inclined. It wouldn’t even need to be nefarious, just a side effect of being tempered. Their motivations and feelings would remain their own, but the level of dedication and need would increase. Sort of like how the Sin Eaters became “Forgiven” versions of their already existing personalities, buttttt instead of losing that personality in service to the primal, it’s instead emboldend while remaining tied to the primals will. For example, Emets love for the Ancient world would become a never ending obsession with its resurrection, Elidibus’ duty as the savior becomes a self destructive and righteous crusade, and Lahabreas devotion becomes fanaticism and religious devotion. All of which helps Zodiark in the end.

I think it's stated that Allagans were wrong about which aspect is "stagnation" and which is "stimulation". That misunderstanding is one of the core reasons that nobody made any further progress on curing tempering: they were doing the opposite of what they should have, due to the Allagans' error.

I think Hesperos is crazy for other reasons. Some related to the fact he's a vampire, others just motivating his decision to become a vampire. I don't think he needs us to invent more reasons he's crazy.

Fitting, considering that Hesperos is Lucifer.

No, really. In real life mythology, Hesperos is one of the original names for the entity known in the modern day as "Lucifer".

[Lyth]

The Allagans didn't make any further progress on tempering because Amon/Fandaniel exiled Owen when he tried to work on it. In fact, Fandaniel notes that Nidhana's talismans are similar to an experiment that Owen himself conducted, during the Lv.80 quest 'Shadowed Footsteps'.

I think the main problem with aetheric corruption is that while you can restore aetheric balance, it's less simple to restore someone's sense of self after its already been lost. What makes the Void's denizens really interesting is that it seems like several of them retained their sense of self despite being aetherically corrupted. Perhaps that has something to do with Eara's observation about the soul always being 'umbrally charged' in traditional tempering, regardless of the causative element. Either way, we'll have to wait and see what explanations they come up with.

[CrownySuccubus]

The Allagans didn't make any further progress on tempering because Amon/Fandaniel exiled Owen when he tried to work on it. In fact, Fandaniel notes that Nidhana's talismans are similar to an experiment that Owen himself conducted, during the Lv.80 quest 'Shadowed Footsteps'.

Right. But my point was that in the thousands of years since, the Source in general has been working from the opposite premise when it came to the nature of tempering. Nobody is sure where that idea came from, but if even the Allagans believed it, then the misunderstanding likely spread worldwide. Basically, everyone in the world was trying to cure concussions under the idea that more blows to the head were the right idea.

[EaraGrace]

I think it's stated that Allagans were wrong about which aspect is "stagnation" and which is "stimulation". That misunderstanding is one of the core reasons that nobody made any further progress on curing tempering: they were doing the opposite of what they should have, due to the Allagans' error.

Right, my point was more speculating on a solution to the apparent contradiction of having an astral being temper someone by shifting their aether towards umbral. I couldn’t help but wonder if it was possible to go the other way and still temper someone.