An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[AlexiaKidd]

This is an excellent idea that was posted earlier in the thread but I fear it will get lost in the sea of posts so going to stick it back here as SE seem to be watching now, it might give them some idea's.

Upon some more reflection, I agree that rewarding people with the "staying alive" bonus for being AFK or just for not playing in a while is a bad idea. My initial outline was also a tad too complex. It could use some simplifying.

As far as it being too easy to die and being really hard to achieve the "still alive" buff, that's sort of what I was going for. I wanted to make it relatively rare to have, so that you don't see everyone and their mother running around with the buff active. I also wanted the buff to not be that strong, so that it's not so bad when you lose it, but I still wanted the player to feel the sting of the loss of all that invested time.

I've rethought my idea and think that a hybrid of mine(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ll=1#post21748) and Stilla's (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/2097-An-open-discsusion-on-the-consequences-of-death?p=21796#post21796)idea would be interesting.

New Take on Death Penalty:

All SP that you gain as a battle class also contributes to fill up a separate rank up bar that has 5 tiers: rank 1 - 5.

Each rank takes 20,000 SP to reach, so to reach Rank 5, you'd need to accumulate 100,000 SP as any combination of battle classes without dying.

There are six bonus buffs that you can choose from: +5% atk, +5% def, +5% m.atk, +5% m.def, +5% eva, +5% acc, -10%MP cost, +10%TP gain, +2%SP gain

At Rank 4, you can choose one. At Rank 5, you can choose two, and you also get some sort of visual enhancement to your character to indicate your lack of dying. You can change your buffs around at anytime, but there is a 30 min cooldown.

If you die:
You lose 2 ranks
You lose 3 anima
You are inflicted with Weakness

If you die and get Raised:
You lose 1 rank
You are inflicted with Weakness

Again, I want the number of Rank 5 status people to be rare, and to actually be an indicator of skill, because it's hard to earn, and takes the same amount of effort to reach as going from class rank 49 to 50. That way, losing your rank 5 status is also a bit of a sting.

I also realize that some classes like tanks and mages are going to be more susceptible to death than other classes, but hey, those are the inherent risks that come with those classes, so you just grin and bear it.

[Rentahamster]

This is an excellent idea that was posted earlier in the thread but I fear it will get lost in the sea of posts so going to stick it back here as SE seem to be watching now, it might give them some idea's.

ah you could call these brave/faith ranks.

I'm liking yoshida's solution though i'm wondering what he means by repair support.

I Like Rentahamster's post:



I think this is a good way of trying to get people to not die, although maybe play around with some of those SP rank requirements a bit.

Hey guys, thanks for repping my idea <3

I fleshed out a few more ideas about this on my blog.
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=155429

Some additional points:

Here's a quick summary of what I'm trying to achieve here - I want a system that rewards players (but not too much) for staying alive, rather than punishes players for dying. I believe that the bias should be towards positive reinforcement as that makes for a more enjoyable gameplay experience. I believe that the method below gives hardcore players (who usually want a death penalty) a reason to care more about not dying, mainly by stroking their egos, while also having death have a real impact on time invested. At the same time, casual players can continue going along throwing themselves at whatever enemy they want no differently than they do now (almost).


Let me put the anima loss into further context. I had envisioned this change along with other changes to the game so that anima wouldn't be such a scarce resource as it is now.

What I wanted to do was to punish the player for dying only a little, and taking away SP is out of the question. That would be too harsh, so the next best thing would be anima.

Now, about my other changes to the anima system so that this would not be as terrible as some have suggested:

I would have all returns done while still alive cost 0 anima. Yoshi-P mentioned that he wants a solution to death porting, so this would be the easiest way.

Also, I would expand the number of favorite locations to 5. Perhaps make a quest that grants you more favorite locations, or something.

Reduce the anima cost of a teleport into a different region from 6 to 5.

Implement other modes of transportation like Chocobos and airships.

This way, the loss of anima still stings a little, but it's not really that bad. It's also not as soul-crushing as losing SP and ranking down.

[Nephera]

The difference between a game with sp/xp loss and deleveling and a game without it.

about 50 hours of grinding.

[Kaedan]

Hey guys, thanks for repping my idea <3
This way, the loss of anima still stings a little, but it's not really that bad. It's also not as soul-crushing as losing SP and ranking down.

Why does everyone still think that SP loss would come with ranking down?

In the method I suggested, you would lose SP, but you would never delevel. And even then, you would be able to buy the SP back. And one of the suggestions I made is to buy back with Anima.

Essentially, we both have the same discouragement: Anima loss. But the SP loss system allows people to choose... they can choose to either lose SP or lose Anima. In your system, you have to lose Anima. To some people, their Anima is more useful to them than their SP.

And what about when someone reaches 0 Anima? Then it's no different than it is now and they are free to just die over and over, wasting everyone's time. In the SP system, you can choose to spend Anima to recover SP, but if you hit 0, you won't be able to buy it back anymore, which would still force people to be more careful so they don't waste everyone's time dying.

Not saying your idea is necessarily bad, but there are a couple of holes, and I don't see "positive reinforcement" as the most effective (and you still have negative reinforcement in there too, so it's ends up in a wash anyway).

[PandaTaru]

SP loss with possibility to buy it back make no sense at all. It's pretty much like having no SP loss but with an extra step.

anima loss after death... you guys really this game to fail miserably or are you just masochists? If it's the later, get into BSDM-RP rather than playing MMO(s). Seriously :x

[Kaedan]

SP loss with possibility to buy it back make no sense at all. It's pretty much like having no SP loss but with an extra step.

Umm... except that you would have to lose either Gil or Anima (preferably Anima) to get it back.

[Rentahamster]

Why does everyone still think that SP loss would come with ranking down?

I doesn't necessarily have to, but that's what happened in FF11, and that's what most people relate to.

Essentially, we both have the same discouragement: Anima loss. But the SP loss system allows people to choose... they can choose to either lose SP or lose Anima. In your system, you have to lose Anima.

Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

To some people, their Anima is more useful to them than their SP.

Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

And what about when someone reaches 0 Anima? Then it's no different than it is now and they are free to just die over and over, wasting everyone's time.

What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

Not saying your idea is necessarily bad, but there are a couple of holes, and I don't see "positive reinforcement" as the most effective (and you still have negative reinforcement in there too, so it's ends up in a wash anyway).

I don't really see the holes you mention.

"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

I do still have negative reinforcement. Just a little. I didn't say I wanted to do away with it completely. I said I wanted the emphasis to be on positive rather than negative. Like, 75% positive, 25% negative.

FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

If this system were 100% positive, that too would be a little too "carebear" and boring.

That's why I think a nice mix would appeal to the most players while not reducing enjoyment for anyone.

[Kaedan]

Yeah, they have to lose anima if they die, but accompanied with the adjustments are made to how anima is used, it wouldn't be such a big deal. My adjustment of letting you "return" for 0 anima would save much more anima than you'd lose by dying. Also, with more transport options to choose from, anima wouldn't be that valuable anymore. Besides - casual players will have lots of anima anyway sine they don't play that often.

I am also all for making Return cost 0 Anima.

Hmm, really? I don't think so, personally.

1 Anima = 4 hours. You can get a LOT of SP in 4 hours.

What about it? If they die over and over, they'll never get anymore anima, they will get a reputation for being a terrible player, and they'll never be able to get the "staying alive" bonus. There's enough reasons not to die even if you have 0 anima.

Exactly. Your system is actually HARSHER than my system. At least with a SP loss/buyback system, you can choose between losing SP and losing Anima.

I don't really see the holes you mention.

-Your system forces you to lose Anima only. SP loss system allows you to choose between SP loss or Anima loss.
-When someone's Anima drops to 0, we are back in the same boat we're in now.

"Positive reinforcement" is the best form of encouragement. Getting praised for being good is more fun then getting punished for being bad.

Actually, this is continually debated by psychologists and professionals in Law enforcement and Correction. It cannot be determined one way or the other which is more effective... there are good cases for both. I'm personally against positive reinforcement as a deterrent to negative action since I am more convinced by that side of the scientific argument.

FF11 was 100% negative - which made death scary, yes, but it put off a lot of players.

Agreed. Which is why I suggested an alternate system which is discouraging, but not too harsh. As I said, your system is actually more harsh than mine, since you don't have the choice between losing SP and losing Anima.


So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

[kukurumei]

So how about this? No loss of anything... no durability loss, no SP loss, no Anima loss. We just increase the weakness timer to 10 minutes. Since time is the most valuable asset in MMOs, that should be a viable deterrent.

Not really. "time" is situational. I loose nothing if I'm about to log off, or go have lunch or the millions of other things that time does not matter, in that it's a "free multi-task".

It's not a hard system to implement, it's just really stupid social one. That's why the XP loss system is so freakin easy to advise.

It's a simple mathematical formula to get balanced. If 20% is too harsh, you do 10% if 10% is too light, you do 15% etc, until it's acceptable.

Where the alternative is to throw in some crazy ideas, or some combination of annoyances, etc, that are even harder to balance, because they are infinitely more complex, and harder to stabilize.

Sure it's tricking the mind where "anything but xp, anything~!" doesn't exactly have a difference in terms of penalty

The idea of "buy back" doesn't make it a any less harsh system, it simply offers a compromise between "casuals" or "squealers" vs "hardcore" etc.

Like promising a candy to a kid after a needle shot, because...he's a kid. The candy is hardly worth the price of a needle shot.

I would straight up favor XP loss, because I know it's a simple mind trick. But I also know the squirmish need to be fooled, so buyback isn't exactly a bad idea...the idea of XP debt for instance was the approach or armor loss, etc.

An alternative I have seen is called "state locking" Where death, put you into a "state where you can't advance". And it can't be rid of till you get X/Y amount of XP or some other non-constant situation.

Say a death would add 5 minutes to a "state locked" where you can't level up, or change equipment, or trade, etc. And can't be removed till physically go to a special area, and state in that area for xyz amount of time. The area being isolated can make it an even harsher penalty then simply XP loss, but it does trick the mind that you did not lose anything, when in reality, you lost a lot by doing things you didn't want to do.

AKA: the old penalty box trick