Dark Knight Megathread

[Archwizard]

This is the only point with which I'm forced to disagree. Dungeon pulling have gotten far less convenient since Warrior traded its cone for a circle with less than two-thirds its range. Flood is easily the handiest and smoothest of all AoEs for grabs and need not miss any mobs even in very large pulls (i.e., distance from the edge of leftmost mob's hit-ring edge to rightmost mob's hit-ring edge). A 5m targeted AoE would be far, far inferior for smooth pulling.

And in such a case, I would then argue that we at least have Shadowbringer to make up that deficit if need be. All we need is a new way to get Darkside before an AoE, or for it to be decoupled from it (since that's just a weird limiter).

Not to mention that in my experience, mobs tend to usually group up in either clusters, small arcs or perpendicular lines to the path of movement, which isn't often convenient for using lines to pull. It's usually after you have a mob train going that lines become convenient to maintain threat.

A cone, perhaps, would be superior -- and I fully understand the frustation WARs felt about losing that -- but I also understand the devs' position of making your spammable AoE tools consistent in shape so that you don't have to constantly reposition mobs between casts, which was a simultaneous frustration of playing WAR when a mob would sometimes decluster off to the side, or your central target died and your new target would only let you hit half the pack unless you slid into a new angle. I used Overpower as an example not because I think it's the ideal direction, but because I know that's a position the devs have already taken and that DRK creates an inconsistency with said position with its even narrower line AoEs.

The ideal direction would be to allow for a niche tool of a unique shape for opening and pulling, but maintain a consistent shape for your spammable attacks. For instance, if Overpower had been used to apply the 10% buff at a lower potency but a longer range, while Mythril Tempest was de-comboed but allowed for a consistent AoE circle at a higher potency.
What might be a point of contention here is that I consider the MP-based oGCDs a part of the spammable AoE portion.

[Shurrikhan]

And in such a case, I would then argue that we at least have Shadowbringer to make up that deficit if need be.

Except, the one is used a handful of times per minute, the other... just twice per two. And you certainly won't want to waste that CD on less than full pack, which means it's not about to be used for initial grabs.

Generally, it's better to have the tool that is better for add grabs to be available often enough to deal with add grabs. The other can be the CD too long for such purposes.

For that reason, if trimming one button would cost us that functionality, I'd rather not. I'd rather just see Abyssal be buffed and (alongside CnS) given a second charge.

Not to mention that in my experience, mobs tend to usually group up in either clusters, small arcs or perpendicular lines to the path of movement, which isn't often convenient for using lines to pull.

Take just the first Opo-opo pull in the new dungeon, for instance. On any other tank, I have to wait around a bit to catch all. On DRK, I just voke the first the moment it's in range, sweep slightly towards one end or the other while targeting the opposite side and, without pausing, I can hit all of them.

All the better for it being oGCD, as I can circular two, if necessary, while still reaching the rest in that same moment even if the furthest is some 10y away and, say, the other mob is more than 5y distant from the farthest.

but I also understand the devs' position of making your spammable AoE tools consistent in shape so that you don't have to constantly reposition mobs between casts

That's the point, though. Outside of the rarest of pulls, and only if you positioned the largest mobs in the center (thereby increasing the pack's diameter / maximum distance between any two mob's hit-ring edges), you did not have to do that. You could remain in place and still hit everything. You could dodge AoEs with little to no retargeting and still hit everything.

Dipping in and out has only been necessary for Samurai when the tank is moving, to reduce the risk of lost coverage over one's Tenka cast time.

but because I know that's a position the devs have already taken and that DRK creates an inconsistency with said position with its even narrower line AoEs.

Homogeneity of AoE shapes, both across jobs and each kit itself, is itself the recent deviation from trends. Every original job had multiple AoE shapes. Heavensward merely added on to their dominant/iconic shape without removing the other. Likewise, until Shadowbringer, each tank had a different variety of those shapes. DRK had self-circles and target-circles (later replaced primarily by line AoEs). WAR had circles and cones. PLD had only self-circles.

The ideal direction would be to allow for a niche tool of a unique shape for opening and pulling, but maintain a consistent shape for your spammable attacks.

You don't even need that so much as to keep the original affordances. The extra range is useless outside of the pull and isn't remotely powerful enough to be consider nerfing a given job's overall AoE damage for.

Just use hybrid shape on Abyssal (thick line until target, then a circular therefrom, hitting each enemy therein still only once) and we'd be golden. Or, just give Edge falloff damage and have its sword arc continue onward as a lengthy, 60-degree cone or thick line or so, such that one can still conveniently tag mobs. So long as we aren't giving up something unique to DRK, we're fine.

That said, I'd still prefer for Abyssal to have its potency buffed and be given (alongside CnS) a second charge, more so than to make it spammable. I'd honestly rather see WAR's AoE sustain curtailed, as I think that's likely to create a balancing hell if Variant Dungeons want to take themselves at all seriously, than to simply see DRK brought close / to second place. Moreover, it'd better mimic the cost and power of the original DA-AD, now that we don't have any Stormblood-era Blood Weapon-Quietus cheese available to us.