Will they give back kaiten to the sam?

[CelestiCer]

Why is everyone asking to get back something bad instead of getting something new that works better?

Asking for something " New" that's unproven/nonexistent to be better then Kaiten, both as resource-spender and more fun for SAM mains? when it's removal fixed nothing what wasn't broken? is " illogical ".

Asking for something guaranteed proven to be better then the hollowness of now makes more sense. Heck If it were up to me, I'd keep Kaiten and then add something New, not something New to replace Kaiten no.

[xAFROx]

Not likely. It was removed as a needless tool used only for a very select set of skills, so they simply baked the buff in and removed the work.

After analyzing the performance data afterward, they will determine some better means of its only redeeming factor (gauge management) and likely implement something new.

Why is everyone asking to get back something bad instead of getting something new that works better?

Another person saying the button is useless, nice.

Yeah, because the skills that it was used for definitely got buffed to make up the removal. I love using kaiten on shifu, jinpu, kasha, and gekko. They're great. It benefited from the use of kaiten so much, I'm really glad they baked the increase into the skills that it was always used for, the gcd combo that builds the kenki. Yes. Brilliant.

That's a very poor take on what kaiten affected, dude.

But yeah, if you're so sure something new would be better, let's hear it. That would also be welcomed feedback. Do you have any?

[fulminating]

I think the loss of both hissatsu:seigan and kaiten has been a net negative for the job. I can’t really tell you which had the bigger impact, but after going back to samurai for the first time in half a year the job did not feel nearly as fun as I remembered. It could also be the circular aoes which feel unwieldy in the extreme. Additionally while seeing a crit on midaire setsugekka and other jajitsu is nice to start with, it rapidly gets old in the same way warrior’s forced direct crits do. When it’s guaranteed it’s not special or noteworthy after all.

[Reese_Clairdale]

This is becoming comical. SAM specific issues aside, blind faith does not work and should not be encouraged. Healer mains especially will be able to tell you this. From 5.0 to 6.15 we've been given zero evidence that they intend to add interesting job mechanics in place of ones they have taken away. A massive amount of people have made new forum accounts after 6.1 specifically to push back against the unrelenting assault on any semblance of complexity. Telling people they probably won't add something back is not a huge revelation. We know this already, that's precisely why people are fighting back.

The real question is, why is this so difficult to understand? Why do people insist on defending SE? Who is this hypothetical present or future playerbase for whom these changes are necessary? Even as a casual player, I still want a game that doesn't feel patronizingly simple.

Combat jobs are the primary tool that you use to interact with the majority of the game. If the jobs aren't fun and interesting to play, then the entire game gets dragged down to that level by default.

[Ruminous]

The real question is, why is this so difficult to understand? Why do people insist on defending SE? Who is this hypothetical present or future playerbase for whom these changes are necessary? Even as a casual player, I still want a game that doesn't feel patronizingly simple.

People who believe the devs can do no wrong, people who are actively trolling, or people who genuinely feel like things need to be easier for them to be able to "be good"? I can only guess too. I don't think we need to go back to doing finger ballet to play a class in this, but if we're going to just make some jobs 1-2 buttons then why add any other actions? Might as well dumb down everything to the point where the game plays itself like a gatcha. Yeah, that's sure fun, when you barely need to interact with the game at all, right?

Not likely. It was removed as a needless tool used only for a very select set of skills, so they simply baked the buff in and removed the work.

After analyzing the performance data afterward, they will determine some better means of its only redeeming factor (gauge management) and likely implement something new.

Why is everyone asking to get back something bad instead of getting something new that works better?

People asking for it back because SE literally gave zero plans on what they want to do. They tore out a piece of the machine, fixed some numbers, fixed them AGAIN because a meme rotation was outperforming the intended rotation, and expect us to like it. I'm sorry, but where is the plan? I'm not seeing it, and I don't think anyone else is. And that's why people want kaiten back, because the class flowed better prior to 6.1 than the mindless shinten spam it is now. ShB samurai was different from SB's because they wanted to get away from shinten spam, but...Now here we are down the road with shinten spam being a problem. So again I ask, what plan do they have? And why did they push a bad idea through BEFORE having it?

[Nizzi]

Not likely. It was removed as a needless tool used only for a very select set of skills, so they simply baked the buff in and removed the work.

After analyzing the performance data afterward, they will determine some better means of its only redeeming factor (gauge management) and likely implement something new.

Why is everyone asking to get back something bad instead of getting something new that works better?

I find it so funny when people believe SE is capable of understanding what "needless tools" are and when people believe they will "likely implement something new" when we have loads of evidence that they just remove abilities and replace them with nothing. How many times can we do this same song and dance? Removing work = good now? Yeah, I don't play a game to have fun or try to play as well as I can, what I really pay $15 a month for is to idle and ERP in Limsa, so I really wish they'd make all of these jobs just play themselves so I don't have to do any "work" anymore!

You want to talk about needless tools? Why does Black Mage still have Scathe? Needless tools? Yeah, I'm sure healers are loving losing their DPS options and having a bunch of bloated heals that they never need to press. When exactly are they going to implement something new or interesting to replace what healers lost? It's been 3 years since Shadowbringers... wait, that's right, they're not going to! Enjoy 7.0 when you have 1 of your remaining DPS abilities taken away so they can shove in two more bloated oGCD heals!!!

Give me a break man, people are upset because they removed something fun and said "lol deal with it!!" and offered no explanation on what they're going to do in the future. If they're "likely implementing something new" we all know that is coming next expac, not this one. Do you really believe that "wait until 2024 to potentially have your job be enjoyable again!" is okay? If the developers want something interesting to replace it, why not just... layout their plans and then replace it once their redesign is done? In what world does anyone just decide to take things away and say "uh yeah maybe we'll have a plan for what we want to do with it in a few years lol" and people are just supposed to think that's acceptable?

[Deveryn]

I find it funny that you think arguing with other people like this and throwing Yoshi-P under the bus will somehow help in convincing them to change anything. It's been said many times that there are better ways to address the devs if you want any kind of change to even be looked at. Start by doing a proper compilation of thoughts and present it in Japanese. I don't find the devs infallible. They've definitely made some missteps, but they've also clearly been receiving enough proper feedback on things to warrant a change.

Get your act together, present something the right way and most importantly, have some patience.

After the conversation that's taken place here, I don't believe some people even care about Kaiten and whether or not it gets changed back. They just want something to complain about.

[Hezhi]

Start by just learning japanese, bro.

[Nizzi]

I find it funny that you think arguing with other people like this and throwing Yoshi-P under the bus will somehow help in convincing them to change anything. It's been said many times that there are better ways to address the devs if you want any kind of change to even be looked at. Start by doing a proper compilation of thoughts and present it in Japanese. I don't find the devs infallible. They've definitely made some missteps, but they've also clearly been receiving enough proper feedback on things to warrant a change.

Get your act together, present something the right way and most importantly, have some patience.

After the conversation that's taken place here, I don't believe some people even care about Kaiten and whether or not it gets changed back. They just want something to complain about.

I didn't ask, sorry!

[Ruminous]

Start by just learning japanese, bro.

Words to live by. I'll literally be remembering that whenever people tell me I shouldn't complain about things SE does.