Every inconvenience is a challenge.

[Lux_Rayna]

My apologies, but all these posts really make me want to do is say, "If you have no motivation, no initiative, no drive to experience a (MMORPG) game and all of its inconveniences/timesinks/challenges, then please save yourself the headache and play an offline RPG".

Nothing that is worthwhile is, nor ever should be, easy in any respect.

Oh look, another mmorpg "I know it all"...this is original.

First of all, your premise is highly highly highly faulty. It assumes that there is some universal concept of "easy" and "difficult" with the latter indicating long-term value. Different ppl find different things easy or difficult; it is impossible, therefore, to claim that something is worthwhile only if it is challenging. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As an example, let's take going for a walk. Going for a walk is not particularly hard, unless of course you are obese, out of shape, or have physical limitations. Would you say walking regularly is worthwhile? By your definition, no. But quite frankly, going on walks regularly has remarkable health benefits and many people find it extremely rewarding.

Now before you say, "but learning to walk was challenging," I will counter by saying that learning to do *anything* new is challenging. Still that doesn't make them worthwhile. Learning physics is hard as all get-out, but I imagine a fair amount of ppl would simply say its a waste of time, and many more wouldn't find it fun at all. So please, stop acting like you *know* what fun is. You know what fun is for you, for some, for many, but not for everyone; that is it.

The challenge in any MMORPG is to find a balance. Different ppl have different concepts of "fun" and sometimes the simplest things are the most worthwhile. Learning your first language was easy..you didnt even exert much effort..and look what you can do with it now. You can learn, you can teach, you can joke around with friends...this easy task became very worthwhile. The same goes in an MMO: you need a variety of things with varying difficulties to try and appeal to as many ppl as possible. There's no such thing as one size fits all. Here I thought this was common sense.

[Nakiamiie]

Because nothing says "fond," "fun," and "nostalgic," like sitting in Whitegate for hours waiting for a party to happen, only to get 7/8 and have the party disband because the tank went afk.
Because nothing says "amazing," like trying to do old content to progress the MAIN STORY that no existing player wants to do over.
Because nothing says "fantastic," like farming for six hours to afford gil to buy ammunition for your Corsair.
Because nothing says "engaging," like sitting in the same spot in Qufim leveling for hours of hours of mindless grind.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Stop white knighting XI and its "inconveniences," which were more like fortresses of agony and masochism.

Since this person worked on Star Wars Galaxies, I can only imagine his idea of "inconveniences" is vastly different from what you (coming from XI) have.

I never felt incapable of doing anything in Star Wars Galaxies (pre NGE game ruining update.) SWG clearly balanced "gameplay" inconveniences appropriately, whereas XI just had inconvenience over inconvenience over inconvenience over a massive inconceivable system. There were plenty of times in XI where I just flat gave up and rage closed the client because I didn't want to deal with the stupidity of the game and it's "inconveniences."

XIV should look to XI for one thing: what not to become.

There should be barriers of skill. Not barriers of tedium, monotony, and TIME.

While FFXIV does lack in this area, Tibian is right in that many of the inconveniences from FFXI weren't really the kind that Mr. Koster (or myself) would want to see again.

Some examples of bad inconveniences:

- Overly-specific party mechanics and poor methods by which to form said parties.
- Content which has been de-incentivized to a point that it's more of a barrier than an interesting element of the game.
- Lack of diverse gameplay choices shoehorning players into dull and monotonous activities.

Inconveniences should create adventure, and none of the above do this. By contrast, here are some inconveniences from prior MMOs which I feel worked well:

- Quest objectives not being displayed on a map. Granted this one is pretty irrelevant with today's internet consumption, but developers have resorted to lazier quest/mission instructions because they no longer need to inform the player in order to guide them. As a result, players don't even have the choice of not looking up the objective location.
- Travel times. Requiring a time investment for travel keeps the world relevant and gives developers another area to design content, such as the FFXI boat encounters or the island chains in EverQuest.
- Dangerous areas acting as barriers. This is even less problematic in the age of miniscule death penalties, so why can't we see areas that require stealthy maneuvering? Kithicor Woods in EQ1 was a fantastic zone, becoming a literal death trap at night. I also enjoy that hybridization of high level and low level content, where you aren't guaranteed your safety because a zone is specifically designed for levels 1-5. It also causes high level players to cross paths with low levels more often, and makes the leveling-up game seem more lively as a result.

Both Tibian and Lior are right, my opinion is similar to theirs.

Things like these (thanks Lior):

Quest objectives not being displayed on a map... (In FFXIV's case it should be vague on the map, not always being at the centre of a small yellow circle *winks at the devs* -- make the circle bigger, the target is randomly found inside that circle, don't only use a yellow circle to highlight a zone to show us a target's location [print footsteps on the ground the player has to follow -- also partly shown on the map, use dynamic markings on static world objects, etc.])

... was a fantastic zone, becoming a literal death trap at night. I also enjoy that hybridization of high level and low level content, where you aren't guaranteed your safety because a zone is specifically designed for levels 1-5. It also causes high level players to cross paths with low levels more often, and makes the leveling-up game seem more lively as a result. (We had that, before some players started complaining they were not able to be mindless zombies while grinding because they would sometimes aggro a higher level monster walking around. We should never be able to be mindless zombies while grinding... or (really) watch a movie at the same time.)

... is the kind of "inconvenience" that makes a game interesting. Inconveniences for the players controlled by the developers (content, not the lack of), not inconveniences for the players and developers caused by system limitations.

[Peptaru]

First of all, your premise is highly highly highly faulty. It assumes that there is some universal concept of "easy" and "difficult" with the latter indicating long-term value. Different ppl find different things easy or difficult; Learning physics is hard as all get-out, etc. Learning your first language was easy..you didnt even exert much effort..and look what you can do with it now. There's no such thing as one size fits all. Here I thought this was common sense.

You used blanket statements about two things being easy or hard in a post that criticizes someone making blanket statements about things being easy or hard.... just sayin.

[Lux_Rayna]

You used blanket statements about two things being easy or hard in a post that criticizes someone making blanket statements about things being easy or hard.... just sayin.

You should probably read more carefully. The argument criticizes someone concluding that something is worthwhile based on blanket statements of easy or hard. My point is that easy or hard doesn't matter, as ppl have different opinions about them. My opinion is that

1) learning your language is easy
2) learning physics is hard

Based on that opinion i can only say "some ppl" or "Many" would find physics a waste of time, and I can say for a fact that learning your first language is worthwhile (otherwise you couldnt function in society).

[Xoo]

You should probably read more carefully. The argument criticizes someone concluding that something is worthwhile based on blanket statements of easy or hard. My point is that easy or hard doesn't matter, as ppl have different opinions about them. My opinion is that

1) learning your language is easy
2) learning physics is hard

Based on that opinion i can only say "some ppl" or "Many" would find physics a waste of time, and I can say for a fact that learning your first language is worthwhile (otherwise you couldnt function in society).

Learning your first language is hardly learning. It's more a product of your daily environment - something that is bound to happen, even for the mentally challenged.

[Lux_Rayna]

Learning your first language is hardly learning. It's more a product of your daily environment - something that is bound to happen, even for the mentally challenged.

Lol learning is learning. Just because it was effortless doesn't that it doesn't mean count. Not all worthwhile endeavors are difficult.

As far as calling ppl stupid goes, I'm not necessarily doing that. Its the reality of life that just as ppl are physically handicapped, ppl are mentally handicapped as well. They could very well be stupid, they could just be ignorant, or they could be mentally challenged. Or the game itself is not really the equivalent of taking a walk...there's that option too. It is what it is, maybe I shouldn't say that but its the truth lol


EDIT:

So its okay for you to declare some things as worthwhile and others not as long as difficulty doesn't factor into the equation? Forgive me for not figuring that out at first as it seems a statement that a mentally obese person might make lol :P Something being worthwhile or not worthwhile is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. That would be a way to say it without talking in silly circles and analogies. If you're trying to make a succinct point with a minor division between your point and a very similar point you should stick to direct language. If nothing else it would alleviate confusion among the mentally obese.

I declared learning a language as worthwhile. If you can make any argument to the contrary I will retract that point and call it an opinion. But you'll have to make it good, I find it hard to believe there's an argument that learning your first language was a waste of time. You can hardly function in life without it, unless you dont find functioning in society worthwhile? Like I said, if you can prove to me otherwise i'll retract it.

Idk why you're insisting on arguing for the sake of arguing, when the premise of the argument was correct. Some ppl have nothing better to do I suppose.

[Xoo]

Lol learning is learning. Just because it was effortless doesn't that it doesn't mean count. Not all worthwhile endeavors are difficult.

As far as calling ppl stupid goes, I'm not necessarily doing that. Its the reality of life that just as ppl are physically handicapped, ppl are mentally handicapped as well. They could very well be stupid, they could just be ignorant, or they could be mentally challenged. Or the game itself is not really the equivalent of taking a walk...there's that option too. It is what it is, maybe I shouldn't say that but its the truth lol

You and SE must be on the same page, which I disagree with. It's a bit harsh and selfish to admit, but I don't want to play a game with the mentally obese. I want to play a game with people who can help themselves and don't whine when they have to put forth effort to get something done.

If you don't have the time for an MMO, because an MMO is naturally time-consuming, then don't play it. I don't know any other answer.

[Answa]

You and SE must be on the same page, which I disagree with. It's a bit harsh and selfish to admit, but I don't want to play a game with the mentally obese. I want to play a game with people who can help themselves and don't whine when they have to put forth effort to get something done.

If you don't have the time for an MMO, because an MMO is naturally time-consuming, then don't play it. I don't know any other answer.

I think you're completely missing the point. Lux is not arguing for any side, she's calling for a balance--the duality of both easy and hard content--because we all want different things. This reminds me of the theme park analogy Yoshida used a lot some months ago.

[Lux_Rayna]

You and SE must be on the same page, which I disagree with. It's a bit harsh and selfish to admit, but I don't want to play a game with the mentally obese. I want to play a game with people who can help themselves and don't whine when they have to put forth effort to get something done.

If you don't have the time for an MMO, because an MMO is naturally time-consuming, then don't play it. I don't know any other answer.

Well it is selfish, but we are all selfish lol. Its because we are all selfish that SE has to try and figure out how to make most of us happy. Ppl like you will have to wait longer because "difficult" content always has to be balanced in last. The only measure of difficulty they have are the primal drops, and the new dungeons to some degree...but other than that nothing. It has to be that way though, at least until the system is solidly in place.