"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[Payotz]

There have been a lot of things done that feel maybe 'that took away from people who liked that. . . ;/"

But that's exactly what's happening. Instead of just lowering the skill floor and making the jobs accessible, they gut the skill ceiling in half, remove core mechanics, homogenized everything, alienated the core players who loved and mastered the job and even in some cases, the role, effectively removing room for skill expression and removing content from the people who loved that, when you can still just press 1 2 3 and not hit positionals as monk to even complete casual content?

Why would you remove Aero 3, Misama 3, Bane, Shadowflare, Eye for an Eye, Palisade, Kaiten, Monk's Raptor Form positionals, and Bard song and DoT synergy?
What's the point of it when people who don't wanna engage in the system... can just choose not to when they are still in the game?
Why did they remove that aspect of the gameplay when it never even mattered for people who are perfectly content at the very low skill floor?
How did removing all of that affect John "1 2 3 no positionals lmao " Monk's playstyle? Was it worth removing a fundamental part of how a sizable population enjoy the job?

NO

Why can't the fact that the jobs are accessible AND have room for skill expression coexist?

This is not gonna happen anytime soon (or at least I hope so), but this is like them removing the options to remove echo and go into content minimum Ilvl and synced.

And even then, right now there are no options to experience pre-nerf Orbonne. There are no options to experience the old job design in old hard content.
Hell, even MINE doesn't even accurately scale properly. You're still powercrept to shit because of potency changes, so Coils and Midas are still easier than when they were back then, even post-nerf.

Even UCOB and UWU have laughable dps checks because of potency powercreep.

So why is maintaining an aspect(the skill ceiling) of the window where you experience the game's content(the jobs), that a sizable population loved (us) when it won't affect Sylphie "Cure 1 spam" if there was extra dps buttons or not?

I reiterate:

The design philosophy of making the gap between the skill floor and the skill ceiling barely visible so people won't feel bad when they're not good is not good.

What they're actively doing with this job design, with every role, is to effectively make it so that a new player can pick up a job, and feel like they're making optimal use of the job after barely any time investment.
("OH LITTLE TIMMY YES YOU NOW ARE A MASTER AT THIS JOB WITHIN TEN MINUTES OF HITTING THE STRIKING DUMMY!")

THAT IS A BORING WAY TO DESIGN JOBS. FUN SHOULD BE MORE OF A FACTOR IN THE DESIGN PROCESS RATHER THAN GUTTING DOWN JOBS TO GIVE PEOPLE A FAKE FEELING OF ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT THEY DONT EVEN CARE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Adding more complexity on top of the base jobs, the base rotations, is not gonna matter for people who don't care about them. Just like how people still spam Cure 1, when Lily GCDs and Cure 2 exist.

It's not gonna lower the skill floor, cause you can still function in content designed for casuals. More dps buttons ain't gonna mean there needs to be dps checks in Casual Content. Casual content will be as clearable with a healer who 1111111 2 1111111 or actually utilizes all their dps buttons. It doesn't matter if the skill ceiling gap is wide, because the skill floor is still low. The jobs are still accessible.

Where it does matter is in Savage and Ultimate, and frankly those are the people who WANT to be better, who wants to feel like they're improving.
Who wants to feel like they're progressively inching towards a high skill ceiling.
Who WANTS a skill ceiling.
And frankly, that's what's missing from the job design ever since 5.0 .

Bring back the skill ceiling. Make being better at X job FEEL BETTER . Stop trying to forcibly remove the skill ceiling to cater to people who are perfectly content to stay at the skill floor.
People aren't asking to raise the skill floor. People are asking to raise the skill ceiling instead.

But at the same time I really don't like nor want a game that is like "you want it, you got to WORK FOR IT" particularly if it's going to involve relying on others lol.

I mean it's an MMO. Respectfully, I don't think the sole focus of an MMO is supposed to be solo content. I don't think an MMO should be forced to become single player.
Sure there should be some solo content, but the major draw of an MMO is to come in, make some friends, do dungeons, explore, do high end stuff, and generally just have fun, and honestly, that should be the main goal.

Solo'ing stuff is fun, but personally if I want to solo bosses, I'd play Monster Hunter. Demanding that solo content be the sole focus of an MMO is like demanding that League's focus should be the You + 4 AI vs 5 AI experience.

It's a lil nonsensical.

If anything, what's missing from the game is 4 man content that won't need people to read guides, and actually play on the fly. Something like Deep Dungeons, but more variety and you can put the gear that you bought with tomes or whatever into it.

Something like Mythic +.

And I reiterate, you don't need to engage with the content if you don't. That's fine. What's rough is that what little content that's actually being catered to the people who like that, is slowly being reduced.

[Shougun]

But that's exactly what's happening. Instead of just lowering the skill floor and making the jobs accessible, they gut the skill ceiling in half, remove core mechanics, homogenized everything, alienated the core players who loved and mastered the job and even in some cases, the role, effectively removing room for skill expression and removing content from the people who loved that, when you can still just press 1 2 3 and not hit positionals as monk to even complete casual content?

Why would you remove Aero 3, Misama 3, Bane, Shadowflare, Eye for an Eye, Palisade, Kaiten, Monk's Raptor Form positionals, and Bard song and DoT synergy?
What's the point of it when people who don't wanna engage in the system... can just choose not to when they are still in the game?
Why did they remove that aspect of the gameplay when it never even mattered for people who are perfectly content at the very low skill floor?
How did removing all of that affect John "1 2 3 no positionals lmao " Monk's playstyle? Was it worth removing a fundamental part of how a sizable population enjoy the job?

NO

Why can't the fact that the jobs are accessible AND have room for skill expression coexist?

This is not gonna happen anytime soon (or at least I hope so), but this is like them removing the options to remove echo and go into content minimum Ilvl and synced.

And even then, right now there are no options to experience pre-nerf Orbonne. There are no options to experience the old job design in old hard content.
Hell, even MINE doesn't even accurately scale properly. You're still powercrept to shit because of potency changes, so Coils and Midas are still easier than when they were back then, even post-nerf.

Even UCOB and UWU have laughable dps checks because of potency powercreep.

So why is maintaining an aspect(the skill ceiling) of the window where you experience the game's content(the jobs), that a sizable population loved (us) when it won't affect Sylphie "Cure 1 spam" if there was extra dps buttons or not?

Just to make sure, you're agreeing with me then? (My first sentence was literally saying that people are feeling like they're losing things they liked).

I mean your post, to me, initially reads like a disagreement in some ways, but maybe I'm just picking up on the negative energy because you're unhappy (not saying it as an insult, saying it as you don't like the direction some things are going). The content itself ended up seeming like we agreed.. /shrug?

Because as far as I can tell we agreed in a general sense. Perhaps not on point by point, but vaguely so lol. Like some of your points I've said.. hmm.. maybe you should add that back.. or try this concept, it wont add more buttons but will certainly add back some ability to fine tune play.. Etc.

I mean it's an MMO. Respectfully, I don't think the sole focus of an MMO is supposed to be solo content. I don't think an MMO should be forced to become single player.
Sure there should be some solo content, but the major draw of an MMO is to come in, make some friends, do dungeons, explore, do high end stuff, and generally just have fun, and honestly, that should be the main goal.

Solo'ing stuff is fun, but personally if I want to solo bosses, I'd play Monster Hunter. Demanding that solo content be the sole focus of an MMO is like demanding that League's focus should be the You + 4 AI vs 5 AI experience.

It's a lil nonsensical.

If anything, what's missing from the game is 4 man content that won't need people to read guides, and actually play on the fly. Something like Deep Dungeons, but more variety and you can put the gear that you bought with tomes or whatever into it.

Something like Mythic +.

And I reiterate, you don't need to engage with the content if you don't. That's fine. What's rough is that what little content that's actually being catered to the people who like that, is slowly being reduced.

Meh. . lol

I think there was a long misunderstood but ever and substantially growing group (since advent of mmos which were originally more hardcore, like the original Everquest) in the hyper to moderately casual group. Both in that originally the sphere was unwelcoming and uncompromising (try de-leveling at level 75 in OG FFXI... jesus... Orz / cry lol), but also because the audience that took part in that is also aging (/adulting) creating a double impact to people who don't want to invest the time because they were never interested in that and people who cant invest the time. Sure if I was a pro-streamer I'd want something more, because I'd be spending 8 hours a day on it. I find it not uncommon people from the older era have trouble grasping that there are /a lot/ of people who actually like the multiplayer nature while also having /a lot/ of solo opportunity and casual content (but through multiple current games it's fairly obvious this is common and large group of people, so I find it interesting people usually still have trouble imaging they exist and call their preferences silly).

Also I want to note that either intentionally or mistakenly you took things out of context. I didn't say sole focus, I said I enjoy carrying the team in those moments where others are doing bad and I am able to do so. There isn't as much carrying in something that is super hard in a team effort because if one fails you all fail, sure you could have crazy good call outs so you're mvp but at that tier of play I'd consider the game 'work'. Like I used to play Warcraft 3 ladder a lot until I got to the ranks where I was using hotkeys like a Starcraft Korean and to which I felt stressed and had no fun anymore. If someone paid me, I don't think I would have an issue doing it.. since I've done it before, but that 'aint fun' to me. Like if someone was "do you want to join my ultimate group" that's a hard pass for me, even if you bent to my very schedule perfectly- I don't want to memorize a bunch of stuff, for me that's literal work. Pay me lol. Of course I have no interest in nerfing ultimate as I see it is content designed specifically for a very particular type of person, who is clearly by statistics part of the minority.

I like having people in the world space, talking to them, doing the frontlines / crystal pvp, etc. I'm aware it's an MMO. But I also like to be able to do stuff solo or at least within the time constraints I give the game. If people who wanted hardcore stuff, without compromise, had their way then the entire game would be a huge waste of my time. I'd have to watch a 10 minute video so I could go die for a few hours because some dude can't figure their stuff out, so then I'd be forced to PF (a good place to organize more skilled groups, cause you can kick if you need), and then I'd be spending time also asking for parties and feeling compelled to play a lot during the 'hot' periods because if I didn't then I wouldn't get to enjoy the content. By this nature of different desires I therefore do like that the game has in most places a low barrier to entry. Of course those means change, like I think its fair and fine that for a while harder content will remain roughly hard (of course we can talk about how well or fun that content is, as I mentioned a bit already in my previous post, but the concept that for a time it's not designed for broad-spectrum is totally fine).

Beyond that I think you missed my point I also think it's actively wrong to any longer consider MMO is exclusively for multiplayer content, as is clearly (like massively obvious) proved by the sure amount of casuals or casual games that have soft social elements. People like to come in contact with each other but that doesn't mean those same people want to always be forced into content like a can of sardines, a common mistake from people used to older MMOs. The amount of MMOs that support actively or at least with at least an element of thought is extremely high these days, actions by design- and I think what is more nonsensical is that many people who come from older backgrounds have a bit of an immoveable unfathomable concept of this. Like that patrick meme from spongebob, where you go step by step by the obvious points that /a lot/ of people like casual / solo opportunities and then you get to the end of the meme and the older player fails the test that MMOs these days actively support solo play because it is a desired feature of .. yes.. an mmo.

That said I also don't think you should forget about the multiplayer element (..obviously? lol). Like personally, if I had all the money in the world and talent lol (which I've neither haha), I would probably make sure people could team up for the MSQ. I don't think it's that great you have to join and leave parties as you do the content, I would like to see it possible to do the entire MSQ with your friends. Yet I also would absolutely not require that, and would ensure it was solo-able.

There are some situations where you can't make everyone happy, and that sucks... but if you can it's worth it I think. So on your last point, sure you don't need to engage in the content but I think it's also fine to make that content accessible over time. Initially it might be crazy hard, but after a few months there is new content and so there is something called 'echo' added to allow it to remain fairly hard but invite more players, then after even more time some absolutely unforgiving mechanics might be adjusted (personally I'd like to see stuff coded into automatic gates), and again and again until it's like a year later and a dude is going in solo. Ideally the solo experience in that moment isn't 1 hit kill, but say certain 1 shot mechanics might be changed to high damage, etc, so you still see a lot of mechanics, enjoy the environment and music, but you're not doomed because no one is doing that content anymore.

Content death, imo, is entirely optional and on that shouldn't generally happen unless it's just bad content that is getting redesigned / redistributed. To which I include having to beg the PF gods to get a group essentially content death, if you have to ask for multiple hours (especially on multiple days) to do something.. then at that point it's dead. This to note can happen to content that isn't even hard, which is why solo-ability is important. Back in 1.0 I was trying to do the ifrit quest at like level 30 or whatever it was... I /literally/ shouted multiple days for multiple hours in Ul'Dah. Finally a group of people volunteered because they felt bad and were probably sick of seeing me shout. Before I finished the introduction cutscene ifrit was dead..... It was that easy... Just no one did it anymore because they 'got theirs' (which is fine, but an example of why I think it's important you do keep lowering barrier to entry over and over and over until it is actually solo-able, adding things like echo, trusts, or what have you). 1.0 would be a more exaggerated example since it was relatively dead at the time, but you do have queues before trusts that were relatively long for certain story content (hence partial trusts being added I imagine, as those contents were essentially dead).

I don't think everything needs to be 'smooth brained', but I don't believe there is an issue with some jobs being smoother than others, or inviting large groups of people into content over a large spread of time, etc. Which is why I said to address certain issues probably requires that specific point brought up. Imo it's good the game is casual friendly, this is a major reason why I play it, but I also see some things happening that are perhaps too 'smooth' lol or are not offering alternative opportunities for those who seek more. I think for the most part both parties can be pleased. Though I wont be interested much in conversations that are like "this is my content, never nerf, never change it, if you want to do it - do it like I did 2 years ago" (with very unique exceptions, since I see ultimate as the carrot on the stick for that very type of person-- but personally on a social / personal level I don't really buy that type of thing.. you playing GoW on max difficulty does not impact my normal difficulty so long as we both had fun doing it or vice versa.. since GoW was the game I played on max and it was crazy hard..).

Just as an aside example, in the previous post, I was discussing things that might be done for healers to gain back some depth (and have on other occasions gone on much longer posts about such a thing). But that's why I said we'd best go point by point... "Stop nerfing savage overtime, remove echo" I'll be like.. no.. keep doing that. "Improve the fun I have while playing savage during current content window", that sounds like an interesting conversation to have. Or Healers who are like "I press 3 buttons, maybe, in casual oversynced DF... I'm so bored" (damage / ogcd heal, maybe raise).. That sounds interesting to discuss.

[Nizzi]

I think the ability to solo stuff and play at your own pace/alone and treat the game as a single player RPG if you want to is great, and in a vacuum I don't mind them supporting players who want to play XIV like a ""final fantasy game" more than an MMO. However, healer design is incongruent to this and feels like it's not even thought about for the developers anymore. Solo play is so freaking miserable on a healer that I find it impossible to believe that they consider it at all. Soloing stuff on a DPS or Tank gives me stuff to do. Soloing stuff on a healer leaves me with nothing to do other than 1-1-1-1 in literally everything ranging from FATEs, solo duties, etc. These kits are overwhelmingly designed for multiplayer high end raid content where you're still hitting 1-1-1-1 for most of the time.

If anyone wants to experience the most masochistic experience you can in XIV, go grind for your Zodiac relic on WHM or SCH. You're going to learn to LOVE that Stone/Ruin spam, it is literally ALL you get to do in like 80% of the Atma and Book phase.

[VentVanitas]

Solo play is so freaking miserable on a healer that I find it impossible to believe that they consider it at all.

Oh they totally do not, lest I mention the fact that you can literally walk through some ARR dungeons with the duty support system without pressing a single damn button on Healer?

But hey! It's letting new Healers learn early that they are not necessary to the party.

[Payotz]

Just to make sure, you're agreeing with me then? Reads like a disagreement in some ways, but maybe I'm just picking up on the negative energy because you're unhappy (not saying it as an insult, saying it as you don't like the direction some things are going).

Yeah it's been a lil rough trying to point out very obvious things that subtlety doesn't work anymore. Being very "in your face" does work though, and cuts straight to the point sooner. If that was a lot of negative vibes, I apologize.

Beyond that I think you missed my point I also think it's actively wrong to any longer consider MMO is exclusively for multiplayer content, as is clearly (like massively obvious) proved by the sure amount of casuals or casual games that have soft social elements. People like to come in contact with each other but that doesn't mean those same people want to always be forced into content like a can of sardines, a common mistake from people used to older MMOs.

I think you have this mindset that "multiplayer content = hardcore content" when it's definitely not. There are lot of people who use this game as a social game, and meeting up and doing stuff together is ultimately the main goal of an MMO, and more content that focuses on the single player experience ultimately sabotages that goal. Content that's designed for multiplayer, with the option (but not the main goal) of doing it solo, whether or not it gets powercrept over time or they add options (like extra echo) to it when there's few players in the instance is acceptable to preserve the skill floor, but making MOST of the relevant content in an MMO, SINGLE PLAYER, is not the way to go.

One of my fun things to do in FF14 besides raiding is running BLU dungeons, and getting BLU spells. When I'm in the mood for it, I would jump into a PF with a BLU who needs a spell, and we would gather 6 more people and go in the instance and BLU farm and have a good time. If BLU spells are only "learnable" in Masked Carnivale (where you can ONLY go in single player), then that effectively makes that part of the game ONLY single player.

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the queue button together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

Sure, I'll give you that an MMO shouldn't be exclusively multiplayer, but it should be focused more in content you play with people, rather than turning an MMO into an RPG. Monster Hunter is not a good example of MMORPG, nor is Left 4 Dead a good example of an MMORPG. An MMORPG's content should be first and foremost, designed for the multiplayer experience, not get turned into a lobby based game where nobody does content together cause "why do this with another person that I don't know and whose probably bad at the game and talk to them when I can just go ahead and afk in Trusts instead.

FF14 should encourage multiplayer, not snuff it out completely. instead of "fixing" areas of the game by making it only singleplayer(which is the easy way out), they should just use it as a band-aid fix, and go ahead and research and develop design decisions that does encourage people coming in together for content in an MMO, just like Treasure Maps, and/or Hunt Trains, or even World Bosses.

One more thing though, I'm not advocating for removal of echo or anything like that, or a return to the old days of "deleveling". I'm not advocating for a higher skill floor and the game to be less acessible. What I'm advocating for is an expansion of the other side of the spectrum, a restoration of the skill ceiling. A restoration of that side of content that's been removed alongside the lowering of skill floor. I want more options to experience the content as it was before, pre-nerfed and everything. I want more content to challenge me. I want the skill ceiling back. Not all people want handouts. If surmounting a difficult wall is not for you and you're burnt out, that's fine, but don't make the mistake of assuming that merits a removal of options for people who want that.

There's also a subset of the population who still play this game for the PvE content, just like there were people who engaged in PvP before the CC rework, just like people who craft, just like people who fish, just like people who do housing.

[Shougun]

Yeah it's been a lil rough trying to point out very obvious things that subtlety doesn't work anymore. Being very "in your face" does work though, and cuts straight to the point sooner. If that was a lot of negative vibes, I apologize.

Eh no worry

I just wanted to verify because I didn't address the points by point but I was like.. "I've seen the simplification of healers over time, and while I think it might be fine one healer is known as being simple.. I am not particularly on board with the entire movement.. and I feel like we can add things back that don't even mess with the whole image of 'healer'"... so why dont we.. like the support concepts I was trying to suggest.

I think you have this mindset that "multiplayer content = hardcore content" when it's definitely not. There are lot of people who use this game as a social game, and meeting up and doing stuff together is ultimately the main goal of an MMO, and more content that focuses on the single player experience ultimately sabotages that goal. Content that's designed for multiplayer, with the option (but not the main goal) of doing it solo, whether or not it gets powercrept over time or they add options (like extra echo) to it when there's few players in the instance is acceptable to preserve the skill floor, but making MOST of the relevant content in an MMO, SINGLE PLAYER, is not the way to go.

I would say anything savage + is on the hardcore border (with ultimate obviously definitely being within it). All MSQ related content being not hardcore, but obviously all MSQ is quite achieveable in DF . I've no problem with this in a general statement. We might be able to hash out ways to refine the experience but I think it's good that I can assume if I queue for a DF (non-savage.. lol) content that I will finish that content and if I have to I can carry the entire team to the end.

I think making most of the content single-player-able is good. Making it designed FOR singleplayer at the outset, particularly with the word "most".. maybe not so much... Here and there, sure, but not 'from the outset most'...

'Most' should be designed for multiplayer, and perhaps forethought in how the content will progress down the pipeline as it ages. Starting out with people at the top of the stack who are the most skilled / time eager. Like if I was making a primal fight I'd put in a function / spell that killed players if they failed, but in that function would have a variable to check if they had like epic echo on or something, if they did then I'd be like 'clearly this is now old content and I don't need to be excluding solo players' and that instant skill would be converted into very high damage (perhaps with a function of average party hp at the given level expected for content, which could be another function ).

Perhaps we continue to agree... lol.

One of my fun things to do in FF14 besides raiding is running BLU dungeons, and getting BLU spells. When I'm in the mood for it, I would jump into a PF with a BLU who needs a spell, and we would gather 6 more people and go in the instance and BLU farm and have a good time. If BLU spells are only "learnable" in Masked Carnivale (where you can ONLY go in single player), then that effectively makes that part of the game ONLY single player.

I would argue that BLU really messed up on release though because it wasn't very great for solo growth, which it desperately needed given there was an obvious flash in the pan relationship to it (you could easily miss out on the opportunity to gain a lot of cool spells and turn into begging for help), and at the addition of Basic Instinct it greatly improved itself (though I still feel there are things that need refined for the initial 50 levels, which could lead to more complicated and thoughtful builds for the job as a whole). It might not be as fast but I would appreciate if the growth of the job was more exciting solo, as that's how I did it (and until you get specific skills).. it's not really... that great.. Of course, you can help your friend with a few choice skills and it gains insane pace though (but I don't think that is how it should be considered 'good enough' -- "good if you friend helps you get an oGCD, Heal, and Mimicry- you become a god!!" Otherwise "you'll cast 1 or 2 spells ad nauseum until much later").

On another note - It was, not saying 'because of me' though, my suggestion that blue mage spells were 100% learned in groups to encourage that aspect... :P.

Maybe I'm not perfect at it but I think I am able to see from a perspective different from the one I 'prefer' (partially because I was that other person). I would not intentionally remove content from someone else, at least under a general understanding of it. "Don't take away my savage ramuh!!!" ... "uh you mean that content you did 4 years ago that you haven't touched since?...? That one..? yeah I'm going to take that and give it to other players now, and I really don't care what you have to say about it- I find your behavior selfish without good merit or cause, knock it off*". *Though I don't mind temporary rewards as we're all humans and there is something primal owning a thing others don't have, even if I find it socially embarrassing that is how we are...

It cannot work perfectly in an MMO for very obvious reasons but as a general philosophy I am in full support of addressing the spectrum of difficulty types players like within the same game. If you play Witcher on easy, cool cool- did you have fun? That's the important part. I'm not going to give you less, maybe sans some cute achievement, because you chose to do that. "I made the game for you to have fun, and I put effort into making sure that you could tune the experience to how you like to have fun."

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the Queue together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

Because you'll absolutely murder the other team lol. Though losing in PvP isn't too terrible since you still get a decent reward.

Sure, I'll give you that an MMO shouldn't be exclusively single player, but it should be focused more in content you play with people, rather than turning an MMO into an RPG. Monster Hunter is not a good example of MMORPG, nor is Left 4 Dead a good example of an MMORPG. An MMORPG's content should be first and foremost, designed for the multiplayer experience, not get turned into a lobby based game where nobody does content together cause "why do this with another person that I don't like and talk to them when I can just go ahead and afk in Trusts instead).

FF14 should encourage multiplayer, not snuff it out completely. instead of "fixing" areas of the game by making it only singleplayer(which is the easy way out), they should just use it as a band-aid fix, and go ahead and research and develop design decisions that does encourage people coming in together for content in an MMO, just like Treasure Maps, and/or Hunt Trains, or even World Bosses.

One more thing though, I'm not advocating for removal of echo or anything like that, or a return to the old days of "deleveling". I'm not advocating for a higher skill floor and the game to be less acessible. What I'm advocating for is an expansion of the other side of the spectrum, a restoration of the skill ceiling. A restoration of that side of content that's been removed alongside the lowering of skill floor. I want more options to experience the content as it was before, pre-nerfed and everything. I want more content to challenge me. I want more the skill ceiling back. Not all people want handouts. If surmounting a difficult wall is not for you and you're burnt out, that's fine, but don't make the mistake of assuming that merits a removal of options for people who want that.

There's also a subset of the population who still play this game for the PvE content, just like there were people who engaged in PvP before the CC rework, just like people who craft, just like people who fish, just like people who do housing.

Some of the initial points I don't entirely agree on, like I think it's fine if someone wants to live the life of trusts.. I honestly don't care (unless it is going to cause massive issues for the DF, but squadrons didn't so I assume it will be fine so far lol). But I understand your ask, and I have taken part in it before- like I've written big chunky posts on world boss events, what you might be able to do with wards for events that drive people together, Hamlet (Dark Cloud / Island Sanctuary) content for FC that includes assaults and defenses (like FFXI's Aht Urhgan), etc.

I didn't think you were specifically asking for removing echo or deleveling, but just examples of where I wanted (in my first post) state that while I understand and want to be part of fleshing out and considering ideas that make the game fun for everyone.. I also would not be happy if there was a bunch of "remove echo" "never nerf this content" "ensure you can't solo learn the blue mage spells" type behaviors.

I wanted to be clear that "I like" many of the casual functions of FFXIV, but I also wanted to note that I can see where somethings feel like they go a bit too far. Or alternatively maybe it should have been done in a different space, but still exist. Like it's unfortunate to change a job famous for being hard to a job that's easy. It could still be fun in their own right for both examples... BUT.... people who flocked to that job for it's gameplay feel might feel like the carpet was ripped out from underneath them. That's a bit unfortunate. Like to me WHM is the healer for when you just want it to be straight forward. So if I was making changes to healers, I might make light changes to WHM but it wouldn't change far from that sphere. Meanwhile SCH was a bit more weird before.. so I might have tried to keep that (with offensive spells / and DoTs in particular).

Warrior's Fel Cleave was cool, but it wasn't something I felt every tank job needed lol. I think condensing skills down is very nice and I have a lot of experience playing MOBAs where 4 - 5 skills is all you need for very interesting gameplay, and I generally like FFXIV's new PVP kits, but I also understand when condensing down skills you want to bare in mind the patterns of keys pressed and if you're losing cool functionality. Less keys but similar functionality is nice, less keys but interesting patterns is even better. You could change some jobs to 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 3. That's probably not great lol. Maybe one job is more closer to that because again I don't mind the idea that a job is more like "we made this with 'easy to play' in mind", but in general.. not great- I can see quite a few players would be like.. "I'm bored". Meanwhile if you had 16 abilities but used a lot of the keyboard because there was a lot of contextual, situational, and interactivity.. I think it would be fine- rather than needing 4 hotbars lol. In context of a change I think SMN at 90 is pretty fun, it could maybe have one or two more mechanics, but it's fun and I like not having insane number of skills for no good reason (I would condense a few more to be honest), but I would agree pre-86 particularly is a bit empty. To me condensing skills is an opportunity to gain more, rather than less. I'm used to like wc3 dota where reading the tooltip was like a short story... lol. So that doesn't bother me. When using a skill in HoTs did like 3 different things depending on where you were and what you were pointing at.

I might not consider condensing every job just because someone may like lots of options, though I'd try to ensure it was skills that 'felt' right to stay that way. Like I think I could think of clever rules for most of the jobs and compact them down a lot.. but some skills are screaming to be one button like leyline / return, others would require scripting if then type situation. And you'd have to ask if it damaged patterns or allowed opportunities for more or less interesting things.

In context of the recent Samurai issue, to be skills that allow fine tuning to be 'a bit' better are interesting, but I would investigate the differences and ensure that a weird case skill wasn't creating substantial differences. To the point you have stuff like bad x Job is always kicked because they're freaking awful, but a good X job is of course valuable but most don't play it right. "You didn't cast that after the 2nd, 9th, and 21st skill to line up to the 43rd window? That's like 25% damage lost!!!!" lol. I might change that. But if using it right gained you a few %.. then it's just an opportunity for skilled players to feel challenged, while ensuring the okay players are not producing garbage (beyond whatever they were going to produce anyways.. I know we've got ice mages sometimes.. and there isn't much you can do there XD....).

In summary though- I don't think we're entirely at odds at each other, in a general sense, but perhaps on certain points we'll have diverging interests (I mean obviously I'm happily self proclaimed casual lol).

[Izar_Chillen]

Another example would be friends not being able to queue into PvP together. Why can't they queue together? Why do people need to do this janky way of queueing together by pressing the queue button together at the same time? What's wrong with going into a casual match with a bunch of friends in voice chat and just having a good time?

I suspect its to stop premades , and PVP rank boosting accounts to sell wins



It being totally random stifles both.

[Payotz]

I've gotta say, this has been one of the most pleasant conversations I've had in the forums lol.
Maybe when datacenter visit comes around we can probably do a lil bit of content together.
Maybe just chat about the state of the game in game and what not. You seem pretty chill.

Some of the initial points I don't really agree on, like I think it's fine if someone wants to live the life of trusts.. I honestly don't care (unless it is going to cause massive issues for the DF, but squadrons didn't so I assume it will be fine so far lol). But I understand your ask, and I have taken part in it before- like I've written big chunky posts on world boss events, what you might be able to do with wards for events that drive people together, Hamlet (Dark Cloud / Island Sanctuary) content for FC that includes assaults and defenses (like FFXI's Aht Urghan), etc.

I think my one fear is that the most efficient way to do things IS Trusts, which eventually would devolve the content in FF14 into "just Trust it LOL" leaving people who want to play with others, nobody to play with.
That's the one thing I would never want for an MMO.
But I would love events like that honestly. One of the main problems of FF14 right now is that it has a lot of half-baked social foundations that has never been expanded upon.
FCs are pretty much just linkshells with buffs. Honestly I'm pretty happy about the Venue/RP scene as a whole because at least SOMEONE made use of it to make content of their own.

More works needs to be put into the game in the social side. There's a lot of very good ideas from other video games and from their very own IP that it's a little bit frustrating on why they don't bother to experiment.

I wanted to be clear that "I like" many of the casual functions of FFXIV, but I also wanted to note that I can see where somethings feel like they go a bit too far. Or alternatively maybe it should have been done in a different space, but still exist. Like it's unfortunate to change a job famous for being hard to a job that's easy. It could still be fun in their own right for both examples... BUT.... people who flocked to that job for it's gameplay feel might feel like the carpet was ripped out from underneath them. That's a bit unfortunate. Like to me WHM is the healer for when you just want it to be straight forward. So if I was making changes to healers, I might make light changes to WHM but it wouldn't change far from that sphere. Meanwhile SCH was a bit more weird before.. so I might have tried to keep that (with offensive spells / and DoTs in particular).

I think that's the main problem about the job design right now. They're all pretty homogenized, and they all do the same exact same baseline thing with not much room for creativity and skill expression.
We can't CC the adds in E8, there's no more palisade. They've effectively removed a large part of a job's identity, feel and gameplay... without replacing any of it or even justifying it correctly.
It's literally just "boop, oh your DoTs are gone! but you have more healing tools in a game where healing checks only exist in very limited parts of the game! Have fun!"

I think the fact that a large part of WAR's identity was restored by the addition of the new Raw Intuition and Bloodwheeting proves that job feel and identity can be restored with as simple as a few button additions.
Whether or not skill ceiling can actually be restored with so little buttons however, is another story.

In summary though- I don't think we're entirely at odds at each other, in a general sense, but perhaps on certain points we'll have diverging interests (I mean obviously I'm happily self proclaimed casual lol).

Yeah I don't think we are. There's nothing wrong with being a casual, or being skilled at the game. I care about the ideas of people rather than what people are.
Majority of what you're saying seems to be a net positive to the game, and yeah I agree with most of them.

I suspect its to stop premades , and PVP rank boosting accounts to sell wins
It being totally random stifles both.

Because you'll absolutely murder the other team lol. Though losing in PvP isn't too terrible since you still get a decent reward.

Yeah but come on. Not even premades in casual? Not even a little bit of priority premade vs premade matchmaking action?
I think that's the one thing that kinda stops me from going into PvP, the fact that it's so jank to get a group of friends together for a casual game.

[Raoabolic]

Game's difficulty is all over the place. I would say some solo engagements in Bozja/zadnor are harder than some synced ex fights and then you have outlier dungeons like Baldesion which has huge middle finger mechanics. I would say the issue of the game being too easy is class diversity or lack of. I know the devs love to keep every class equally balanced like they are designing a multiplayer shooter or something but that design really limits when you can do in a single player/pve setting.

[DPZ2]

It should have been something like :

Tank quests should throw hoards at you

What MMOs have you been playing that go to that level of 'tutorial'? I've encountered exactly zero in the years I've been playing MMORPGs.