Is the WoL actually good though?

[Brinne]

I for one think it is possible to simultaneously hold the belief that the narrative is generally way too lenient on the City-States and their leaders for their faults and committed atrocities, and that the Garlean Empire is nonetheless, by action and as an institution, generally on a different class of atrocity.

(it is possible i am doing it right now. right now)

[Lyth]

I think if you want to evaluate the actions of nations, you have to look at the individuals who are making those decisions in the first place.

Take the Garleans as an example. They started out in one of the most beautiful, fertile, and resource-rich regions in Ilsabard and were driven out of their ancestral homeland because they couldn't use magic to defend themselves. In a way, they're the antithesis of the Amaurotians, which is what makes Emet's original decision to cast his lot in with them interesting. By intervening, he managed to reverse their fates and help them develop into a powerful nation. That's pretty heroic. If our characters were around during that time period, we might have had reason to throw our lot in with theirs as well.

Where Emet and Varis' later actions fall short is when Garlemald's resources were misappropriated as a tool for the Ascians' personal benefit rather than that of the Garlean people. That's one of the central problems with any dictatorship, because it becomes difficult to disentangle the 'I' from the 'we'. Emet used the armies at his disposal as a tool to initiate the Seventh Umbral Calamity in alignment with his own personal agenda. Varis and Elidibus produced chemical weaponry in the form of the Black Rose to slaughter Garleans and Eorzeans alike in order to force the First to rejoin. In the long run, Garlemald was ultimately worse off for the Ascians' control, and now that the nation is finally free of them, it can start to heal.

It's less a question of 'who' we support than it is a question of 'why' we choose to act.

[CrownySuccubus]

It's not being free of the Ascians that allows Garlemald to heal, though. It's being free of any form of government whatsoever. This is evident from the actions of the Legates in EW; even with the Empire in such a shattered state, the military-based government was still operating under the core value of war. Garlemald was, first and foremost, a military dictatorship that respected only martial strength; most other industries and facets of its society were likewise judged by how useful they were to their military operations. This absolute faith in military might also determined who ruled the country as general-in-chief (Solus and Varis both earned their crowns through military might, and part of the reason the country fell is because the Legates went to war with each other over a power vacuum).

Even being reduced to a crippled, hopelessly underpowered military wasn't enough to deter most of Garlemald from their ways -- the whole point of the Anima primal was that the people were sure that their warrior king Varis was still alive and would unite the military, punish the traitors, drive out the foreign occupiers, and restore the Empire's hold on Eitherys. It's not until Anima is dead, their Legates have all surrendered or killed themselves, and there is absolutely zero hope of restoring the Empire to what it was that the surviving Garlean populace takes any steps in an alternate direction.

My problem with the "why we choose to act" viewpoint is because, as proven by the Garleans, most people don't even know why themselves, especially after they've been doing it for a long time. Whatever initial motives they had (sympathetic or not) are quickly irrelevant outside of propaganda -- tradition becomes all they know, and any other way of life seems impossible or insulting.

[PastelGothGuy01]

Tbh as a WoL i would not want for people to fight each other or kill each other and try to come up with solutions that did not involve violence like maybe talk it out,but in the game sometimes talking it out doesn't work and we end up fighting each other, just like the time when Elidibus told us that we killed his friends,but if i had the option to tell Elidibus my personal thoughts and feelings on that subject matter then i would, and tbh my personal feelings towards that part of the game was this ---> "I really did not wanna kill your friends truly,but i had no other choice!...If there was another way where i did not have to kill your friends then i would take it,but i'am not free to do that,my hands are tied,what was i supposed to do if my hands were tied in this one?!...I am stuck!...and i truly feel horrible about it,but again my hands are tied in this one!..." But of course such a choice is not available in this game...There are many more things i would have liked to tell him,to Elidibus,but the game gives you really limited options...Only at the end of finishing off Elidibus do the developers give you an actual good answer to choose,that answer being something along the lines of "did i do the right thing?"... Or something along the lines of "if it was worth it". That is the one part i really hated in the game cus it felt almost hypocritical in some way,well at least to me it was hypocritical!...The game giving you that answer at the end when it would have been better if the game gave me,that choice earlier...I also feel that Elidibus would actually think about it if i told him my true feelings on the subject matter of his friends...And i feel we could have actually come to a good enough Conclusion to said answer that might be satisfactory for both of us(to My WoL and Elidibus)in a way that both of us wouldn't have to go at each other's throats about it...but knowing the game it would throw a curve ball right back at you and that curve ball would not be a very happy thing at all and said curve ball would still want our characters to try killing each other...Fate truly is a cruel mistress my friends. ;n;

[PastelGothGuy01]

It's not being free of the Ascians that allows Garlemald to heal, though. It's being free of any form of government whatsoever. This is evident from the actions of the Legates in EW; even with the Empire in such a shattered state, the military-based government was still operating under the core value of war. Garlemald was, first and foremost, a military dictatorship that respected only martial strength; most other industries and facets of its society were likewise judged by how useful they were to their military operations. This absolute faith in military might also determined who ruled the country as general-in-chief (Solus and Varis both earned their crowns through military might, and part of the reason the country fell is because the Legates went to war with each other over a power vacuum).

Even being reduced to a crippled, hopelessly underpowered military wasn't enough to deter most of Garlemald from their ways -- the whole point of the Anima primal was that the people were sure that their warrior king Varis was still alive and would unite the military, punish the traitors, drive out the foreign occupiers, and restore the Empire's hold on Eitherys. It's not until Anima is dead, their Legates have all surrendered or killed themselves, and there is absolutely zero hope of restoring the Empire to what it was that the surviving Garlean populace takes any steps in an alternate direction.

My problem with the "why we choose to act" viewpoint is because, as proven by the Garleans, most people don't even know why themselves, especially after they've been doing it for a long time. Whatever initial motives they had (sympathetic or not) are quickly irrelevant outside of propaganda -- tradition becomes all they know, and any other way of life seems impossible or insulting.

That is the same thing that happened to poor ol Elidibus,he had forgotten why he took on his "Duty"in the 1st place,until we beat the c**p out of the poor man,that is when he finally remembered why he took on his duty as Elidibus and became a primal i guess?...

[PastelGothGuy01]

I think if you want to evaluate the actions of nations, you have to look at the individuals who are making those decisions in the first place.

Take the Garleans as an example. They started out in one of the most beautiful, fertile, and resource-rich regions in Ilsabard and were driven out of their ancestral homeland because they couldn't use magic to defend themselves. In a way, they're the antithesis of the Amaurotians, which is what makes Emet's original decision to cast his lot in with them interesting. By intervening, he managed to reverse their fates and help them develop into a powerful nation. That's pretty heroic. If our characters were around during that time period, we might have had reason to throw our lot in with theirs as well.

Where Emet and Varis' later actions fall short is when Garlemald's resources were misappropriated as a tool for the Ascians' personal benefit rather than that of the Garlean people. That's one of the central problems with any dictatorship, because it becomes difficult to disentangle the 'I' from the 'we'. Emet used the armies at his disposal as a tool to initiate the Seventh Umbral Calamity in alignment with his own personal agenda. Varis and Elidibus produced chemical weaponry in the form of the Black Rose to slaughter Garleans and Eorzeans alike in order to force the First to rejoin. In the long run, Garlemald was ultimately worse off for the Ascians' control, and now that the nation is finally free of them, it can start to heal.

It's less a question of 'who' we support than it is a question of 'why' we choose to act.

I agree with you but i kinda also agree with crowny,things like this are certainly tough. :/

[Tetsujin]

If you came for Fortune, you're looking to profit from other people's misery. If you came for Fame/Glory, then you're ignoring the plight of others and are likely going to step on anyone to achieve said success. If you've come for Power, well I mean that says a lot about you already.

Since when was Endsinger posting on the forums?

But really though. These lines makes you sound massively cynical and that colors the rest of what you have to say. No offense, OP.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Since when was Endsinger posting on the forums?

But really though. These lines makes you sound massively cynical and that colors the rest of what you have to say. No offense, OP.

Eh, we're all the Meteia somewhere deep inside. Mortalkind is rather more negative on the whole rather than positive. More evil than good in the world and all that. That said, it's a bit of an obligation to rise above our inherent evil and do some good before we inevitably die.

....Wow, you sure got me going.