What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[tokinokanatae]

He’s twenty four years old—which is still extremely young—and the scene is being exaggerated for comedy (and also likely that the engine might just not be up to the task of expressing his desire to go in a more subtle way). The point is that he understands that his duties and promise to Krile come first beyond a non-Badesion excursion—and indeed, when he talks about going on future adventures with us in the aftermath of 6.0, it’s in the context of Baldesion commissions of particular difficulty or interest—but we’ve come here with a personal request for him, so the temptation to drop everything and go is real…

(And again as for that so-called all-consuming obsession with us, the first thing he does is suggest Y’shtola join us, so it’s not like he’s trying to get us alone to have his wicked way with us)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you personally have to like G’raha or find the scene funny. I’m also not saying there aren’t things to criticize or that the game can’t lean a little too hard into him as a comedy character. I just don’t think it’s a character inconsistency that he’s excitable and loves the idea of exploring shit with someone he admires.

[Rulakir]

(And again as for that so-called all-consuming obsession with us, the first thing he does is suggest Y’shtola join us, so it’s not like he’s trying to get us alone to have his wicked way with us)

A shame. That would've been more interesting. :P

[tokinokanatae]

A shame. That would've been more interesting. :P

My WoL appears to agree, if the agonizingly disappointed look on his face was anything to go by. Or maybe he just hates Y’shtola.

[KizuyaKatogami]

He’s twenty four years old—which is still extremely young—and the scene is being exaggerated for comedy (and also likely that the engine might just not be up to the task of expressing his desire to go in a more subtle way). The point is that he understands that his duties and promise to Krile come first beyond a non-Badesion excursion—and indeed, when he talks about going on future adventures with us in the aftermath of 6.0, it’s in the context of Baldesion commissions of particular difficulty or interest—but we’ve come here with a personal request for him, so the temptation to drop everything and go is real…

(And again as for that so-called all-consuming obsession with us, the first thing he does is suggest Y’shtola join us, so it’s not like he’s trying to get us alone to have his wicked way with us)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you personally have to like G’raha or find the scene funny. I’m also not saying there aren’t things to criticize or that the game can’t lean a little too hard into him as a comedy character. I just don’t think it’s a character inconsistency that he’s excitable and loves the idea of exploring shit with someone he admires.

My thing with it all is theres a time and place for everything. He's eating burgers during an expansion where theres a literal impending apocalypse and im what, supposed to find it cute and endearing?No, instead of wasting time on these shitty scenes give me more insight on actually important stuff. This goes back to like, 5.4 or 5.5 where we just learn about these mass tempering towers and hes fawning over estinien with big glowing sparkly eyes. To me it isnt cute. Its unprofessional and horribly fitting for the situations they always occur in. It just seems like a great disservice to the character that he once was.

[Lunaxia]

He’s twenty four years old [...]

It all comes down to your take on it, I suppose. As far as I'm concerned, Alisaie is sixteen years old; twenty four is too old to be acting like that, even if you don't see him as now being over one hundred now, which I personally do. I don't agree that it's normal that any given individual does not grow or change over the course of a century, or that it's... healthy to remain that fixated on a person, especially when the circumstances are as serious as they were. The discussion so far has really only cemented my view that his feelings towards the WoL drive quite literally every aspect of his character, and I've already commented how I feel about that sort of writing.

Some people will and clearly do like that his experiences have left his feelings unchanged, and I'm glad they take enjoyment from his character. I don't hate him, in the sense of who he is, I just think he's weakly written compared to other characters, and that brief instance in Garlemald was interesting to me in that I realised I could warm to him, if only they fleshed him out beyond his ardent affection for the WoL and gave him some more nuance.

It's interesting to see what appears to be a genuinely polarising issue here, though.

[CrownySuccubus]

Not exactly my point. They could have simply said it wouldn’t work on him. Considering the devs themselves stated they had 2 endings planned for 5.3, it stands to reason one of those was indeed him dying, and they chose not to kill him due to fan appeal. That is something i have a major problem with as again, the character has had nothing but bad writing, plot holes, and plot armor attached to him since his re-introduction.

I don't know what to tell you besides that being a problem of personal taste. Clearly, the argument that he "has had nothing but bad writing", is not universal...as evidenced by said "fan appeal".

Besides that, the situation of him surviving his own half-baked plan isn't really a case of "plot armor". Plot armor is not simply "this character could have died but didn't". The circumstances behind his survival made sense in the story, and likewise served as an excellent villainous moment for Emet-Selch.

My thing with it all is theres a time and place for everything. He's eating burgers during an expansion where theres a literal impending apocalypse and im what, supposed to find it cute and endearing?

I really do not understand why you guys keep bringing this up. The entire point to those moments was that the Scions were running themselves ragged racing from one crisis to the next and sometimes forgot to slow down and find time for their own comfort. Are we going to be angry about a scene of soldiers playing cards and drinking whiskey in a war movie? Hell, the burger scene comes at a time when your party literally has nothing to do but wait, and Gr'aha is the Scion who is least fitting for this criticism, because he's shown multiple times to have overworked himself to the point of exhaustion. He does it so often and so predictably that even Lyna calls him out on it from an entire planet away.

No, instead of wasting time on these shitty scenes give me more insight on actually important stuff.

Again, this is rather subjective. Personally wouldn't care, either way, but that's likewise just my personal opinion.

[AziraSyuren]

I don't know what to tell you besides that being a problem of personal taste. Clearly, the argument that he "has had nothing but bad writing", is not universal...as evidenced by said "fan appeal".

Besides that, the situation of him surviving his own half-baked plan isn't really a case of "plot armor". Plot armor is not simply "this character could have died but didn't". The circumstances behind his survival made sense in the story, and likewise served as an excellent villainous moment for Emet-Selch.



I really do not understand why you guys keep bringing this up. The entire point to those moments was that the Scions were running themselves ragged racing from one crisis to the next and sometimes forgot to slow down and find time for their own comfort. Are we going to be angry about a scene of soldiers playing cards and drinking whiskey in a war movie? Hell, the burger scene comes at a time when your party literally has nothing to do but wait, and Gr'aha is the Scion who is least fitting for this criticism, because he's shown multiple times to have overworked himself to the point of exhaustion. He does it so often and so predictably that even Lyna calls him out on it from an entire planet away.

Yeah, like, nonstop tension isn't good for a story and that's clearly what EW was verging on were there any actual tension felt. The slice of life scenes hit a lot different for people who actually felt that tension.

And, I've said it before and I'll say it again, G'raha actually dying would've been a betrayal of his character. He was literally called out on his eagerness to sacrifice himself and nobody bought his attempts to make his death any easier to handle. Personally, it showed me that he didn't understand what it really meant to be a hero (especially since his leadership as the Exarch, which, y'know, requires him to be alive, was more heroic than any attempt he made to sacrifice himself) and validating that lack of understanding would've been a character assassination worse than anything that happened in EW. The fact that he found a way to live on in the face of death is frankly one of the best moments in Shadowbringers.

[Lunaxia]

Yeah, like, nonstop tension isn't good for a story and that's clearly what EW was verging on were there any actual tension felt. The slice of life scenes hit a lot different for people who actually felt that tension.

I take issue with your implication that those of us for whom the scenes fell flat were "immune" to the tension in the story. Previous expansion packs have had similar moments of downtime, and handled them much better. The camping scene in the Mists, the scenes with Ardbert in the inn, the drinking scene with the twins sleeping in Stormblood. They were meaningful, poignant and suitably downtempo, without feeling contrived or wildly out of place in the context of the story.

[Midareyukki]

Yeah, like, nonstop tension isn't good for a story and that's clearly what EW was verging on were there any actual tension felt. The slice of life scenes hit a lot different for people who actually felt that tension.

Sis, I've felt the tension. I was fully engrossed in the tension. Even my sister told me to close my mouth when we went to the Moon or a fly would get in because I was feeling the tension.

You know what I felt once we killed Zodiark? Confusion. Followed by the only time I ever skipped Endwalker cutscenes: dealing with annoying rabbits. And no, Viera players, I'm not talking about you, you're not annoying and thank god for that.

I felt the tension and got nothing for it. I tried enjoying the story and getting emotionally involved in it, suspend my disbelief for one week and just love the game's story. But throughout all of it I just kept thinking "...this is kind of daft, but okay".

Endwalker was fine for the most part, but it does have flaws. So keep your Strawmanning to yourself. Because we don't strawman the story just because we acknowledge it has flaws.

[aveyond-dreams]

Yeah, like, nonstop tension isn't good for a story and that's clearly what EW was verging on were there any actual tension felt. The slice of life scenes hit a lot different for people who actually felt that tension.

And, I've said it before and I'll say it again, G'raha actually dying would've been a betrayal of his character. He was literally called out on his eagerness to sacrifice himself and nobody bought his attempts to make his death any easier to handle. Personally, it showed me that he didn't understand what it really meant to be a hero (especially since his leadership as the Exarch, which, y'know, requires him to be alive, was more heroic than any attempt he made to sacrifice himself) and validating that lack of understanding would've been a character assassination worse than anything that happened in EW. The fact that he found a way to live on in the face of death is frankly one of the best moments in Shadowbringers.

The expansion was set against the backdrop of the literal end of the world. Of course there was supposed to be tension. And it could have been alleviated every once in a while by scenes far less ridiculous than the hamburger sequence. As others have mentioned, it isn't that we were immune to the tension, we expected and wanted to see it instead of the fluff scenes. If we wanted to play a silly high school style game then we would be playing Persona instead of Final Fantasy XIV.

I once again insist that G'raha Tia's writing represents both a failure of the writers to commit to meaningful sacrifice (a trend we later saw repeat itself in Endwalker) and the prioritization of comfort over substance. Heroes staying alive is more heroic than sacrificing themselves for the causes they believe in? I'm sorry but are you kidding me? I think we have completely different definitions about what it means to be a hero. The High Summoners of FFX were praised as heroes because they gave their lives in order to bring peace to their world even if it was only temporary because they held on to hope, even if they were not told the full story of Sin. Noctis in FFXV saved the entire world by sacrificing his life after having enjoyed a relatively privileged life up until the invasion of Insomnia. Need I go on?

What we saw there was the product of "covid writing" where during that era I noticed that many writers (myself included) were unwilling to put their characters through a lot because of how bleak everyone's irl situations were. I recognized what had happened there on the spot. He didn't get a happy ending because he deserved one, he got one because people were understandably not in the mood to write that kind of ending for him at the time, even if that was what would have made the most sense for the story. 2 years later we are still paying the price for that decision, with one of the best characters in the game reduced to a bad joke.