What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Renathras]

Strange, what I said didn't seem controversial, yet four people posting to tell me I'm wrong in 13 minutes? o.O

Xirean: Where did I say people had no reasons behind being upset? People are SELDOM upset for absolutely no reason.

Avayond: I'm not exactly one prone to bouts of emotion. I can see a story has weakness while recognizing it isn't horribly bad or irredeemable because of it. There's emotionless analysis of a story and then there's (negative) emotion influenced analysis. You seem to be doing the latter while trying to claim that you're doing the former since the latter seems significantly more respectable. Anyone with a negative outlook can FIND things to dislike in even the best of stories and artistic, literary, or musical works. Don't mistake negative analysis driven by emotion to be superior to positive analysis driven by emotion. And certainly don't mistake it for neutral or non-emotional analysis.

Kazhar: Judging by what I've read of this thread, it appears to be more the echo chamber than most. That said, I feel a lot of forums end up being echo chambers. But I'm in several FFXIV casual discords (which are not - people complain about things there), follow several content creators (not all of who loved EW), and am aware of EW's critical acclaim and overall success, but also the disputes. FFXIV on Reddit is what it is, but FFXIVDiscussion has much more...well...discussion, including of its faults. Particularly the combat system overall and Job design. This thread seems far more likely to be an echo chamber than me looking holistically at the rest.

Xeronia: True about Reddit, the downvotes don't even have to be rational and brigading is...frequent. But reading my post, what made you think I was suggestion you had no right or were wrong to dislike EW? As I just said a bit ago in the thread on EW being "the most controversial expansion", I'll say again here: People can have different subjective opinions and that's perfectly fine. It does become a problem when people start thinking their subjective opinions are objective truths as well as when it lends to forming echo chambers. Bringing up concerns is fine. I didn't say otherwise. It's just this new "EW is a horrible expansion with a mediocre to horrible story" is just shockingly out of touch to me. I can understand people disliking some aspects of it, but EW was not a HORRIBLE story by any means. The main issues are as I noted with things like pacing and the Ultima weirdness. It wasn't PERFECT, and I'd reject anyone saying so, but it wasn't BAD, either.

Though I really did like the Omega quest, but I love that stuff in general, so I recognize not everyone might.

[RyuDragnier]

Yeah, the forums are an echo chamber, in multiple areas. You'll see the same people posting about the same things often, and threads will skyrocket in pages even though it's the same 4-7 people talking (and often arguing). Look at some of the threads like the Dark Knight Megathread, the thread about deleting SCH actions, etc. It's often the exact same people having a discussion, though that's often because people prefer discord and reddit these days over forums.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

You say things are subjective but then make a blanket statement of EW was not a horrible story by any means. You may believe that and you’re absolutely entitled to that opinion, but many people don’t seem to think that’s true. I’d recommend looking at a few posts in here as many of them go into explicitly detail with the objective problems with this story.

Yeah, the forums are an echo chamber, in multiple areas. You'll see the same people posting about the same things often, and threads will skyrocket in pages even though it's the same 4-7 people talking (and often arguing). Look at some of the threads like the Dark Knight Megathread, the thread about deleting SCH actions, etc. It's often the exact same people having a discussion, though that's often because people prefer discord and reddit these days over forums.

Reddit is just as much of an echo chamber if not worse than here though. In my experience stalking and harassment is prevalent there, especially if you express a dislike of anything related to 14. I also dont think its right to downplay peoples valid criticisms in threads on the forums as nothing more than echo chambers. There are valid concerns here. Just because you may disagree with them doesnt make that any less true.

[Xeronia]

Strange, what I said didn't seem controversial, yet four people posting to tell me I'm wrong in 13 minutes? o.O

Xirean: Where did I say people had no reasons behind being upset? People are SELDOM upset for absolutely no reason.

Avayond: I'm not exactly one prone to bouts of emotion. I can see a story has weakness while recognizing it isn't horribly bad or irredeemable because of it. There's emotionless analysis of a story and then there's (negative) emotion influenced analysis. You seem to be doing the latter while trying to claim that you're doing the former since the latter seems significantly less respectable. Anyone with a negative outlook can FIND things to dislike in even the best of stories and artistic, literary, or musical works. Don't mistake negative analysis driven by emotion to be superior to positive analysis driven by emotion.

Kazhar: Judging by what I've read of this thread, it appears to be more the echo chamber than most. That said, I feel a lot of forums end up being echo chambers. But I'm in several FFXIV casual discords (which are not - people complain about things there), follow several content creators (not all of who loved EW), and am aware of EW's critical acclaim and overall success. This thread seems far more likely to be an echo chamber than me looking holistically at the rest.

Xeronia: True about Reddit, the downvotes don't even have to be rational and brigading is...frequent. But reading my post, what made you think I was suggestion you had no right or were wrong to dislike EW? As I just said a bit ago in the thread on EW being "the most controversial expansion", I'll say again here: People can have different subjective opinions and that's perfectly fine. It does become a problem when people start thinking their subjective opinions are objective truths as well as when it lends to forming echo chambers. Bringing up concerns is fine. I didn't say otherwise. It's just this new "EW is a horrible expansion with a mediocre to horrible story" is just shockingly out of touch to me. I can understand people disliking some aspects of it, but EW was not a horrible story by any means. The main issues are as I noted with things like pacing and the Ultima weirdness.

Though I really did like the Omega quest, but I love that stuff in general, so I recognize not everyone might.

Oh I didn't mean you, again in general that is the responses I see, I apologize I am running on like 4 hours of sleep due to someone in my house needing help this morning. EW is not a horrible story by any means and I do see why people would love it but the main themes just missed me really hard and then upon reflection I didn't like what it did to a lot of characters.

[aveyond-dreams]

Aveyond: I'm not exactly one prone to bouts of emotion. I can see a story has weakness while recognizing it isn't horribly bad or irredeemable because of it. There's emotionless analysis of a story and then there's (negative) emotion influenced analysis. You seem to be doing the latter while trying to claim that you're doing the former since the latter seems significantly more respectable. Anyone with a negative outlook can FIND things to dislike in even the best of stories and artistic, literary, or musical works. Don't mistake negative analysis driven by emotion to be superior to positive analysis driven by emotion. And certainly don't mistake it for neutral or non-emotional analysis.

Character growth stagnanted during Endwalker. People did not go from point A to B. Sacrifices that would have otherwise served to add a sense of depth and gravity to the plot were hand-waved one after the other. Random plot elements were introduced at the last minute and then quickly resolved/forgotten about. These are not the makings of a good story. Themes were forced in to the point of feeling like obtuse preaching and fell flat for no small amount of people from varied walks of life.

This isn't having a negative outlook, it's seeing what was actually put in front of me. Strip everything else away and that's about as neutral and fair analysis as you can get.

[Xirean]

Strange, what I said didn't seem controversial, yet four people posting to tell me I'm wrong in 13 minutes? o.O

Xirean: Where did I say people had no reasons behind being upset? People are SELDOM upset for absolutely no reason.

I didn't say you were wrong nor did I say what you assume I said. I simply asked how much you had read, mostly because people have come into the thread without reading anything before. Also you asked a rather open question, that could be taken very easily as a jab. Why are you surprised that people respond to it?

[CrownySuccubus]

Character growth stagnanted during Endwalker. People did not go from point A to B. Sacrifices that would have otherwise served to add a sense of depth and gravity to the plot were hand-waved one after the other. Random plot elements were introduced at the last minute and then quickly resolved/forgotten about. These are not the makings of a good story. Themes were forced in to the point of feeling like obtuse preaching and fell flat for no small amount of people from varied walks of life.

This isn't having a negative outlook, it's seeing what was actually put in front of me. Strip everything else away and that's about as neutral and fair analysis as you can get.

People have as much validity resonating with an awful story which had positive points that affected them on an emotional level as another person taking a high-brow critical analysis of said story and pointing out how none of it makes sense and is morally problematic. For example, it's possible to love the original Indiana Jones trilogy while acknowledging that it portrays Dr. Jones as predatory to minors, has one of the most annoying female leads in film history in the second film, and has an insultingly repetitive plot each film. Each of these things are valid points of truth about the movies and someone could reasonably state how much they dislike the movies and/or their characters. While at the same time other people (your truly included) can say how much they love the action and comedy, that the storytelling and cinematography are excellent for their time, and that the characters and repetitive stories are fun if you turn your brain off. Each of those people may point at each other and claim that the other "doesn't get it", but that doesn't make either opinion wrong or uninformed.

I didn't like Endwalker as much as most people did, but I can certainly see WHY people liked it. Especially specific story beats. It's nice to have a place where I can share the faults I found with the story, but it's easy to see validity in why others may have liked it.

[KizuyaKatogami]

People have as much validity resonating with an awful story which had positive points that affected them on an emotional level as another person taking a high-brow critical analysis of said story and pointing out how none of it makes sense and is morally problematic. For example, it's possible to love the original Indiana Jones trilogy while acknowledging that it portrays Dr. Jones as predatory to minors, has one of the most annoying female leads in film history in the second film, and has an insultingly repetitive plot each film. Each of these things are valid points of truth about the movies and someone could reasonably state how much they dislike the movies and/or their characters. While at the same time other people (your truly included) can say how much they love the action and comedy, that the storytelling and cinematography are excellent for their time, and that the characters and repetitive stories are fun if you turn your brain off. Each of those people may point at each other and claim that the other "doesn't get it", but that doesn't make either opinion wrong or uninformed.

I didn't like Endwalker as much as most people did, but I can certainly see WHY people liked it. Especially specific story beats. It's nice to have a place where I can share the faults I found with the story, but it's easy to see validity in why others may have liked it.

I think this is something to remember yes. A majority of the community isn’t going to be as into lore as the people in this thread are. Endwalker had more fanservice than any other expansion whether it be anime slice of life scenes or seeing old characters come together that we haven’t seen in a long time. That can leave a lasting impression on people. Things like lore inconsistencies,plot holes, plot armor etc doesn’t seem to matter much to the average player. I think that’s why there needs to be understanding on both sides. It’s totally okay for someone to like the expansion, but keep in mind it’s also okay for people to not like it, and people shouldn’t downplay valid criticisms(not saying you just saying in general.)

[Rulakir]

I have a question about opinions on the Scions. Is the displeasure with the fanboy personality of G'raha because people got used to the Exarch persona or because people just don't like fanboy in general? Would people feel better or less frustrated with this aspect if it were explained/explored more how G'raha actually works with the dual memories/soul thing?

I think I'm one of the few here who like G'raha. He's my favorite Scion. I'd rather be done with Urianger and Y'shtola given the choice. I don't hate the twins, but I sure would like a break from them, especially Alphinaud.

By the way, do you have a usual play time? I'm on Crystal as well.

Is this forum out of touch with the entire rest of the community, or is this some big thing that I've somehow never heard of anywhere else?

As others have said, the rest of the community is intolerant of negative feedback. I haven't been able to say anything critical about EW on either r/ffxiv or r/ffxivdiscussion (the rare times they discuss story) without being dogpiled and downvoted. I don't do Twitter, but I've heard it's just as bad. I'm not surprised you've only seen positive feedback because the negative is aggressively quashed on other platforms. There have been several here who made accounts specifically because this is the only place they can vent and discuss their issues with others who feel the same way.

I personally don't believe this is an echo chamber as we all have different reasons why we didn't like EW and have times where we don't agree with each other. Most of us are also still active on other platforms, so there's no avoiding the opposing POV. I can understand why people liked EW, I just wasn't one of them. The storyline required more suspension of critical thought than I was able to give because, to me, the story and characters were inconsistent and often contradictory. I've noticed that typically those who enjoyed the story accepted the conclusions it demanded, conclusions I felt like they didn't do the necessary leg work for me to draw myself.

Also, because there's so much positivity elsewhere I'm left to conclude that EW didn't land well for other audiences. Yoshi-P needing to clarify that Venat isn't a "bad guy" when western social media was nothing but a gush fest over her and the story leads me to believe he was seeing negativity from elsewhere because I don't know where he would've found it here. There were not even any critical threads in general discussion that I recall at the time, only over on lore which I'm not sure they read.

[Brinne]

A lot of it comes down to "what are you looking for from this game?" EW deliberately revolves around a lot of feel-good wish-fulfillment heroic fantasy - again, I do think the intent here was good, simply to "make players happy" - and really, that's probably exactly what a number of people are looking for when it comes to an MMORPG like this. They're there to have fun and enjoy escapism.

But, bluntly, when it comes to how expectations affect one's response to things - I probably wouldn't have been nearly as vocally disappointed in Endwalker if Shadowbringers hadn't surprised me, blown me away, and genuinely touched me in a lot of ways. Prior to Shadowbringers, I was a fan of FFXIV and had been playing and enjoying it for a while, but on a writing level, it usually amounted to "I can see the effort being put in here and it's fun to dissect on that level, but it's pretty clumsy more often than not." For example, the discussion a few pages ago with Hien and the Doma plotline - it's dumb and bad, I certainly discussed it being so among friends, but fundamentally it was also something I could mostly shrug and roll my eyes at, and move on.

Shadowbringers removed this possibility for me because it made me really care about this story and these characters, so when I saw them being mishandled, and being used to say things that both a) didn't fit within the moral framework the game had established prior, and b) didn't fit within my moral framework to an extreme, "shrug and roll my eyes" wasn't possible anymore. I know they are capable of much more, and much better, than feel-good shounen tropes and a rather self-serving "[x] character is good as long as they're our ally because we are indisputably good no matter what" and it became upsetting because falling back onto such things felt like a serious regression from Shadowbringers encouraging compassion and thoughtfulness. And because EW is a direct continuation and resolution to those ShB elements I treasured, I can't even compartmentalize the way they clash. So rather than shrugging it off, I opted to explode and thoroughly embarrass myself by ranting and raving on these forums, it seems. Whoops!

Also, it goes without saying that different people are going to have different reasons for disliking Endwalker. I disagree with tons of reasons people post here about why they didn't like it. Probably the majority of reasons, speaking numerically. I like Hermes, I like Zenos, I like G'raha, etc. I can't bring myself to get worked up over things like one-off comedy scenes or stuff like Tweetingway as a marketing device. It is what it is.