Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Alenore]

We do have her factions quote asking for the Ancients to relinquish stewardship to those new beings. Given what we know about her goals, and her actions that followed that suggestion, I think it logical to conclude that this was a possibility for her. However, two major issues need to be resolved before this is a solution.

1. The Ancients would have to agree to let those beings live their own lives free of interference or control. In order for them to strike against Meteion they would need to develop their own outlooks, reasons and motivations for existing as mortals. Interfering would compromise this.

2. Efforts would have to be taken to separate mortals and the Ancients in order to prevent conflict. The Ancients held sway over the star for millenia. Watching mortals make mistakes and ruin things would be excruciating and given the Unsundereds reasons for hating the Sundered conflict is almost inevitable. Likewise, should mortals come to know the Ancients and their power, they may try to do the same thing they did to the dragons. I'm imagining Thordan 2.0.



I wouldn't be so quick to presume the writers aren't addressing this chance. This expansions Tales and the Myths of the Realm are still incomplete.

I seem to recall one such quote, but I can't seem to find it now. Do you have it around? It doesn't seem to be in Anamnesis.
As for your 1, not necessarily. Beings of similar aether density already exist in the world, namely the multitude of familiars.
We weren't efficient against Meteion because we had torebuild civilization multiple times and had incredibly foreign motivations compared to Ancients. In fact, out outlook on life is quite similar to Venat's, and I suppose Azem's as well.

So no, I argue to integrate them into society as full fledged ancients who made a sacrifice in order to fix the Meteion problem, and they may choose to be rejoined after their purpose is over or continue as mortals in that society.
Even if they were to create a society, I doubt Emet-Selch and the other Ascians would have much issue with how things are done in Sharlayan. A civilization guided by Ancients wouldn't necessarily end in tragedy.
And then, if mortals tried to go full Ancientsong way, how would it end? Rejoin, and become Ancients? Well, one experiment failed, 12000 years of experiment to go!


To be clear, I don't think the writers even imply that Venat's way was the only one. But it's something part of the community thinks, despite constantly failing to give proof. Which is natural since no proof can exist, given it never even had a chance to happen.
The game takes place in a world where Venat did sunder Etheirys, and since our timeline cannot simply be erased due to 10 years of content taking place in it, it had to be resolved this way. They also probably didn't want to do the whole "change past to create a safe timeline" a second time after Shadowbringers, and so had Venat act the way she did. It shows us a flawed Venat, but it works, characters obviously not always making the best decisions.

Even in the liveletter, when Yoshi-P breaches the subject, he says it's something Venat believes, not that there wasn't any other way. She sees Zodiark being summoned, and comes to the conclusion that they'll just go toward their end, envisionning them ending in a similar way as the Plenty. So she decided to sunder everything.
Yoshi-P even mentions that Alphinaud was right when he contested Emet-Selch's right to judge mankind, and that the same applied to Venat.

[Rulakir]

It shows us a flawed Venat, but it works, characters obviously not always making the best decisions.

Except we don't get "flawed" Venat. We get 'tragic heroine' Venat who is venerated. Despite what's been said in interviews and the seeming walk back of the positive narrative surrounding her, all throughout 6.0 she is treated as benevolent, kind, loving, and good, who made the best and only choice (despite evidence to the contrary). The Scions kick into full hypocrite mode in regards to her despite the fact she is the embodiment of everything they have historically fought against and condemned, the WoL is not given any dialog options that aren't favorable to her, and Emet-Selch's characterization was completely broken in order to "commend" her in UT. The single only person who calls out what she's done is herself and she has no regrets, her ending is exactly what she wanted.

Nuance was stripped out of EW in order to prop up her character, so we're left with what is essentially an antagonist (regardless of whether or not she was well-intentioned) being presented as a protagonist and there was too much dissonance for a lot of people for me to agree that it 'worked'.

[Vyrerus]

Except we don't get "flawed" Venat. We get 'tragic heroine' Venat who is venerated. Despite what's been said in interviews and the seeming walk back of the positive narrative surrounding her, all throughout 6.0 she is treated as benevolent, kind, loving, and good, who made the best and only choice (despite evidence to the contrary).

Been replaying EW recently, and the craziest thing to me related to this is the fact that Krile praises her like a sycophant.

In the level 83 quests, Venat takes over Krile's body, uses almost all of her aether to teleport to Tower of Bab-il, and then to redirect Fandaniel and Zenos to land a crater away. Leaves the body like, "I asked much of her." Krile is then bedridden to recover for a bit, and compares it to G'raha Tia nearly killing himself to give all of the people in Tower of Zot a cushy landing.

So Venat literally almost kills Krile.

Later on at the level 89 quests after the Garlemald Final Days instance, the WoL informs all the Scions about their Elpis ventures. During the following discussion Krile asks, "Do you suppose Hydaelyn's given up her pursuit of Meteion?" You're given dialogue choices to respond to this. They are:

1. The Venat I know would never give up! (The WoL has known her for a day and a half. Simp much?)
2. No, but Meteion is still out there.

Selecting 2 yields this response from Krile:

"Aye, though not for lack of trying on Hydaelyn's part. Surely, that's why She used me as a conduit for Her will, and provided such clues as the Elpis flower. I believe She has been waiting... ...For mankind to answer Hermes's question."

More discussion about how to reach/deal with Meteion follows, and then the optional talking with the Scions in-between quests yields this from Krile:

"After you left for Garlemald, I went to Labyrinthos and tried to reach Hydaelyn using the Elpis flowers. Alas, my attempts were in vain. I can only assume that She spent a vast amount of Her power in the confrontation with Fandaniel and is presently unable to communicate. Indeed as Her presence left my body, I could feel how faint it had grown..."

So... after Venat used almost all of Krile's corporeal aether, Krile still thinks that Hydaelyn was using her own power, that Hydaelyn is on the verge of fading away, so much so that she cannot talk to us. Turns out not to be the case. Krile continues to be a lemming.

[Rulakir]

Been replaying EW recently, and the craziest thing to me related to this is the fact that Krile praises her like a sycophant.

Krile is basically just Minfilia 2.0, or Mini-filia. :P It's why I don't like her. The end of ShB they're supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motivations after discovering she's a primal only for Krile to find her so irresistibly charming she gives her body to her.

The Scions have always been zealous towards Hydaelyn, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when it comes to her all logic and conviction go straight out the window. The fact that they never had an issue with her telling Minfilia to kill herself or abandoning her until she let Hydaelyn use her body as a vessel is hand waved as Minfilia "following her heart" and somehow "free will" (despite Minfilia initially yelling "No!"). Thancred, the one Scion who should have anger issues towards her due to his obsession with Minfilia, refuses to even think about it (literally, he says as much after Qitana Ravel). Minfilia is Trashcan Man from The Stand, "My life for you!" and Thancred just goes along with it.

I still maintain that EW would make a lot more sense if Hydaelyn tempered and it's laughable to me that she is seemingly the only primal in existence with no negative side effects. Hell, Emet essentially describes Venat as a Mary Sue in Elpis. The whole thing is just ridiculous to me. I've never seen a narrative so contorted to try to force people to love a character as much as EW is.

At least Ardbert was based.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Krile is basically just Minfilia 2.0, or Mini-filia. :P It's why I don't like her. The end of ShB they're supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motivations after discovering she's a primal only for Krile to find her so irresistibly charming she gives her body to her.

The Scions have always been zealous towards Hydaelyn, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when it comes to her all logic and conviction go straight out the window. The fact that they never had an issue with her telling Minfilia to kill herself or abandoning her until she let Hydaelyn use her body as a vessel is hand waved as Minfilia "following her heart" and somehow "free will" (despite Minfilia initially yelling "No!"). Thancred, the one Scion who should have anger issues towards her due to his obsession with Minfilia, refuses to even think about it (literally, he says as much after Qitana Ravel). Minfilia is Trashcan Man from The Stand, "My life for you!" and Thancred just goes along with it.

I still maintain that EW would make a lot more sense if Hydaelyn tempered and it's laughable to me that she is seemingly the only primal in existence with no negative side effects. Hell, Emet essentially describes Venat as a Mary Sue in Elpis. The whole thing is just ridiculous to me. I've never seen a narrative so contorted to try to force people to love a character as much as EW is.

At least Ardbert was based.

The particularly egregious part is that they're still doing it. In the revised Porta Decumana that was originally a part of the Praetorium, she talks the usual spiel of "I haven't the strength to shield thee again"..... but apparently her and our "hope" (dear Gods every time I hear the words hope or despair I just cringe now, like I'm suffering PTSD) still yet possesses the power to fully fill our LB3 bar to full and fully resurrect us when Lahabrea kills us. In the Myths of the Realms they're connecting old quotes and plot points to Hydaelyn and the Endwalker's plot points when they had nothing to do with each other before. So yeah, for a saga that's apparently over and done with after 6.0, the patches content has an awful lot of moral wankitude and backwards retcons going on to prop up a dead woman yet further.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

Krile is basically just Minfilia 2.0, or Mini-filia. :P It's why I don't like her. The end of ShB they're supposed to be questioning Hydaelyn's motivations after discovering she's a primal only for Krile to find her so irresistibly charming she gives her body to her.

The Scions have always been zealous towards Hydaelyn, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised when it comes to her all logic and conviction go straight out the window. The fact that they never had an issue with her telling Minfilia to kill herself or abandoning her until she let Hydaelyn use her body as a vessel is hand waved as Minfilia "following her heart" and somehow "free will" (despite Minfilia initially yelling "No!"). Thancred, the one Scion who should have anger issues towards her due to his obsession with Minfilia, refuses to even think about it (literally, he says as much after Qitana Ravel). Minfilia is Trashcan Man from The Stand, "My life for you!" and Thancred just goes along with it.

What happened to Minfilia was basically entrapment. You know, just trust the inscrutable voice in your head as you've always trusted (for no discernible reason)...aaaand now you'll "live" and die as her puppet or you'll just die in the lifestream achieving nothing and helping no one as your soul gets reduced to nothingness. It makes me sick just thinking about it again. Everyone who's dealt with Hydaelyn has met with a terrible fate, one way or another, whether they were against her or her allies. I'm so glad that monster is dead.

[Lyth]

...

The simplest reference is from your first meeting with Hyth 2.0 in Amaurot.

'There were, however, those who disagreed with this plan. They argued that enough had been sacrificed to Zodiark - that this new world should belong to the lives newly born. These dissidents surrendered their life energies in the creation of Hydaelyn, an incarnation of their opposing belief. And for the first time in history, our people stood divided... Know you, then, how this conflict ended?'

It's worth noting of course that Hyth was killed off in the first set of sacrifices, so he strictly speaking wouldn't have been around for any of this. But Hyth 2.0's viewpoint is probably a reflection of how Emet perceived their respective goals.

I think that creating a task force of 'Scion-like Amaurotians' creates its own set of problems. The Ascians struggled enormously with the question of whether we could even be considered actual living beings, as Emet casually uses this to justify the murder of seven planets filled with people. A lot of this comes down to the simple fact that their society equates aether with power, much like the Garleans value strength above all else. Even Hythlodaeus considers himself to be inferior by virtue of having reduced aether reserves compared to Emet. But everything that we've seen recently suggests the opposite, that dynamis is the more powerful and more abundant energy source. I would really be fascinated to see a culture built around dynamis manipulation, as they may very well have the same sort of misconceptions about us, except over our souls being needlessly dense.

Most of the arguments against Venat's plan come down to whether you unquestioningly trust the Convocation's judgement or not. But I think the underlying message is that while the Amaurotians may appear 'god-like', they're still human and fallible. I'll be especially interested to see what the motivations of their Speaker are around Pandaemonium.

[Brinne]

A lot of this comes down to the simple fact that their society equates aether with power, much like the Garleans value strength above all else. Even Hythlodaeus considers himself to be inferior by virtue of having reduced aether reserves compared to Emet.

hythlodaeus holds an extremely high government position, is never shown to be disrespected by anybody (if anything people think very highly of him, he was nominated to have one of the top positions in governance and only didn't get it because he refused, emet-selch thinks the world of him) and there's an entire sidequest in amaurot about the amaurotines making accommodations for people who aren't skilled at using aether. that he has low self-esteem has no correlation to others' perceptions of him or broader society, just like anyone in any position in our society can be afflicted with depression.

Most of the arguments against Venat's plan come down to whether you unquestioningly trust the Convocation's judgement or not.

lmao. nah

[EaraGrace]

I seem to recall one such quote, but I can't seem to find it now. Do you have it around? It doesn't seem to be in Anamnesis.
As for your 1, not necessarily. Beings of similar aether density already exist in the world, namely the multitude of familiars.
We weren't efficient against Meteion because we had torebuild civilization multiple times and had incredibly foreign motivations compared to Ancients. In fact, out outlook on life is quite similar to Venat's, and I suppose Azem's as well.

Lyth posted one source. Another comes from Tales from the Shadows:

This was soon after Zodiark became the will of the star, and our Final Days were averted. The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end.

So no, I argue to integrate them into society as full fledged ancients who made a sacrifice in order to fix the Meteion problem, and they may choose to be rejoined after their purpose is over or continue as mortals in that society.

A single generation isn’t enough to develop new methods of manipulating magic, nor philosophies and perspectives on life that incorporate an understanding of inevitable death. And then once one generation passes to the next, and these new beings grow up alongside the immortal ancients ruling over paradise, so how long does it take before they start demanding ways back? One of the points of mortality was to get people to face despair, to go to the breaking point and still move forward, but if they knew they could hit the eject button why wouldn’t they? And if they couldn’t, how long until bitterness and envy set in?

Even if they were to create a society, I doubt Emet-Selch and the other Ascians would have much issue with how things are done in Sharlayan. A civilization guided by Ancients wouldn't necessarily end in tragedy.
And then, if mortals tried to go full Ancientsong way, how would it end? Rejoin, and become Ancients? Well, one experiment failed, 12000 years of experiment to go!

They wouldn’t have 12,000 years though. They’d need time for these societies to develop, to grow and flourish in ways the Ancients never had to learn. And the Ancients wouldn’t have any problem with Sharlayan until it started messing with their “perfect” world. Species driven to extinction, forests and ecosystems cut down en masse, barring the Ancients completely abandoning their current purpose I do not believe they would accept that.

Even in the liveletter, when Yoshi-P breaches the subject, he says it's something Venat believes, not that there wasn't any other way. She sees Zodiark being summoned, and comes to the conclusion that they'll just go toward their end, envisionning them ending in a similar way as the Plenty. So she decided to sunder everything.
Yoshi-P even mentions that Alphinaud was right when he contested Emet-Selch's right to judge mankind, and that the same applied to Venat.

Yoshi P also mentions that the developers viewed the Plenty as the natural end for the Ancients. Based on what we see in Elpis and beyond, I do think that is where they end up as well.

[Alleo]

Yoshi P also mentions that the developers viewed the Plenty as the natural end for the Ancients. Based on what we see in Elpis and beyond, I do think that is where they end up as well.

Which is something I already thought about when I reached this part of the dungeon. They are bascially looking a lot like the ancients, just in white.

And its hinted at in Elpis too. With Hermes asking the question on what happens if we are all satisfied. If the Ancients reached their goal of making the planet perfect enough in their eyes. If they then all die. He also cant wrap his head around the fact that his mentor bascially wants to kill himself since he saw his role as finished while Hermes thought that he could still do so much good.

We then have the side quest where the Ancients praise us for our ideas and one admits that their creativitiy has gone stale. So they are seemingly already at a point where they have problems with that. The shark later is also an indication. Hythlos is seemingly starting to get annoyed at so many shark concepts which often even makes no sense and I asked myself what these would bring to the planet?

Venat is also asked when she will return to the star...bascially asking her when she will kill herself...

So yes them becoming another Plenty makes sense. After all they will reach a point where the planet is filled enough with creatures that they bascially have nothing else to do. Thus they die.

I also wonder how they would react if they learned about the heath death of the universe. Would they not care or would they be like the Ea, asking themselves what it was all for if their paradise will one day be destroyed.