Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[Carin-Eri]

This thread should really be merged with the 'Lackluster Endwalker' thread, since it has very little to do with the 6.15 Omega Quests specifically at this point.

[redheadturk]

I don't think there's much reason to think the mothercrystal was the only way to fuel space based travel, especially when the topic was a creation designed to counter her, but regardless there's zero reason to believe meteion could just try a bit harder and shatter the barrier. They never show the ability to do anything like that, and there's no reason why they wouldn't have done so already if it was possible.

Obviously it's not a guarantee other methods of combating meteion would succeed, but it wasn't a guarantee we would either. I don't think you explain well why they only get one chance either, like they make a plan, it doesn't work, and then they all just die? Zodiark wasn't struggling after all that time, I don't get why it would just randomly stop working?



But it's not inconsequential, because we are given the Ea as an example of a "failed" civilisation. They fought to thrive as a civilisation and had a strong drive to continue existing, but despite doing everything right here, they still ran into a fate they could do nothing about. If they stay mortal they're leaving themselves susceptible to a heap of different ends, but if they become immortal they are still unable to escape the eventual fate of the universe.

The issue with the themes here is that the Ea are an absolute best case scenario, with the only real options being to either choose death, or live to drift aimlessly forever in an endless void. The only difference between them and the sundered is that the latter are much, much worse at solving their problems.

It doesn't work very well thematically when the inevitable outcome of successfully chasing that desire to live longer is held up as a failure.

This. I mean, have we forgotten the very moment in the MSQ where Fandaniel finishes off Zodiark of her saying "At last!", which is a pretty dang good indicator of her not being able to strengthen the song to simply overcome the barrier. It had to be let down in order for her to shove it through.

[LordGiggles]

The issue with the Ea is not actually about the heat death of the universe, it’s about how their discovery made them feel as if life was pointless. They gave up, long before the heat death would occur, believing that it meant nothing if it isn’t indefinite. That’s the issue.

Yes, but this is specifically because of the heat death of the universe. It is an inevitable end to everything they care about, that would leave them drifting eternally due to their effectively immortal nature. They gave up because they realised their ultimate fate is either suicide or something much worse, with this understanding coming as a result of the fight that gave them purpose. No other encountered race in the setting has faced anything near that, and the only way to avoid it is to die before it's relevant.

The quest where you read epitaphs from some of them highlights this pretty well I think, there's one that talks about how they fought to leave their planet, how they fought to travel between dimensions, and how they fought for nothing. These are people that will live so incredibly long that the current age of the universe would be a tiny blip to them, they will live to see everything they have ever loved or cared for die, and they have absolutely no way to avert this fate. They give up when encountered with the incontrovertible fact that there is no actual hope for them to change this, no matter how hard they tried.

Hard disagree. The Sundered may have to face more struggle, but they in turn have happier, more fulfilling lives. The Ea either kill themselves or become moral with new flesh bodies and then kill themselves. Their lives in their eyes are not worth living, meanwhile the Sundered still find joy and meaning in their existence. There’s a clear benefit.

I'm not aware we're given any information that suggests the Ea were somehow unhappy before they reached this state? The fact that the sundered are not as competent at achieving their goals as the Ea were is why they don't struggle with this same issue, they simply have not advanced to a stage where it's even worth thinking about. The responses we do see from them regarding the topic suggest they're just entirely unequipped to even try tacking the problem at all, outside just refusing to acknowledge it.

I don't think the setting as provided allows for a happy ending in the extremely long term, outside maybe some exceptionally low maintenance immortals just living in giant time travel loops, I guess. Or as some weird suffering obsessed culture that refuses to fix many problems and views their inevitable death as a good thing, maybe, but that's just cenobites crossed with the ancients.

Meteion was wrong because she was (they were?) attempting to take away any autonomy from people or civilisations regarding how they would meet their end, but they were correct about the fate of all life. I don't believe denial of that is a virtue, and I do hope that if there's more quests like these omega ones they might touch more on the Ea, as they're fairly unique in this context.

Welcome to our own existence is all I can say. Atm we have the exact same circumstance bearing down on us.

Personally I imagine I'll die somewhere in my early 80s, or maybe my 90s if I'm unlucky enough, but if you're planning on living past 10,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000 years old I can understand why you might have a different take to me on this stuff.

[Alenore]

There is no evidence that it would have been able to withstand say, a more focused attack of Dyanmis. She is working with all of it in the universe after all. It's not like they gave them a chance to speak. All talks fell on death ears. Did they just kick the guy outta the room?

Perfect it how? They know nothing about Dyanmis and Omega, who is more advanced than them is stumped on it as well. What makes you think they can succeed? Dyanmis does not lend itself well to scientific study that's repeated over and over within the story. Also what Zodiark's barrier would do to hamper that study. Turn him on an off again for testing maybe? It's hard to study something you can't freely control.

Meteion was hell bent on destroying Etheirys. See what happened when we killed Zodiark, she was "YAS FINALLY MY TIME TO SHINE". She has been sending waves of despair toward Etheirys, not Dynamis directly. As I understand it, Dynamis is all around (even inside Zodiark's dome, or Elpis flowers wouldn't change colors). What happens is that she sends despair waves through the existing Dyanmis medium, but she doesn't straight up send dynamis itself to us. It's affected by emotions and thoughts, but in the end, it's just waves of despair through a medium, that used to crash against the rocks that were Zodiark's shield.


Most of our knowledge about Dynamis comes from the Ancients, though. Hermes specifically. While we can't rely on him to fill the blanks, others do study the subject, however considering how aether-rich Etheirys is, it's considered to be of little worth.
Let's see what Hermes say about it:

And though its existence has long been theorized, we had no proof until the flower’s serendipitous creation. What’s more, dynamis is far weaker than aether. Under normal circumstances, its effects are drowned out by the latter. On account of which, beings comprised of and reliant upon aether, like you and I, are unable to make practical use of dynamis. ‘Tis a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars.

Hermes himself, our resident expert on the subject, recognize other scholars know about it.

Have other Entelechies ever created beside Meteion? It seems so.

Meteion: That's me, that's me! An entelechy!
Hermes: That you are, my dear. And no ordinary one at that, but the first possessed of free will.

So even if Hermes was the only one who ever created actual entelechy by purpose (we don't know), it shows it can be done, even without free will, even perhaps to be used as tools against Meteion.

It shows it was a subject that wasn't researched by many, but even then, we have proof actual success in the field can happen: Meteion, a free-willed being able to use Dynamis for communication, and so much more even if that was by mistake. Tell me, if Meteion was infused by the despair of people who meant to die, how do you think and Entelechy fueled by the desire of every Ancients to suvive and go back to the way things were would turn out? An incarnation of hope and salvation? The perfect being to counteract the waves of Despair Meteion nurtured over the years in her nest.
Comparing Omega, a being that itself recognize they shouldn't even bother with Dynamis because as machine they should have no emotions, to Ancients who showed repeatedely that they had emotions and a strong will for salvation is... disputable at best.

Yes, they only get one chance. Metetion isn't on the planet, she's at the edge of the universe. It took 12k years worth of aether to have enough fuel to make it and it took half that time just to make the technology to do so. Before you say we can just send them using dyanims, there is only one living being that has made this type of journey, and these beings would no doubt have to go much longer as we don't know how far the dragon star was away from our planet. They'd have to make that voyage unbroken and then it's a toss up on if they turn into monsters or not. You're working with the 12k timetable but there's also no indication that Meteion couldn't just turn up the volume of her song and overwhelm Zodiark and it's the final days all over again. Though that wont make for a good narrative. They might not have had 12k years.

The Mothercrystal started forming once she turned into Hydaelyn.

Ever since I became the will of the Star, the aether drawn here hath slowly crystallized.

Besides the irony of using part of the world's aether to save our lives, which apparently is bad when it's to rescue the souls of those used to summon Zodiark... That's totally something they could have done. Arguably even more efficiently on an unsundered world.
The crystal form may be facilitiated because Hydaelyn is strongly Light/stasis aspected, but Ancients showed they knew these properties as they summoned Zodiark as a being of Dark because its goal was to quicken aether around the world.

So what if it takes 12k years for the Ancients to actually reach Meteion?
When we got there, we could also have turned into monsters or got simply erased, as Meteion tried to do. But beings of greater aetheric density would be much more protected to that side effect, and if they had Entelechies creations along, could fight Meteion for control of that Dynamis. It's not like Venat knew we would succeed, she hoped to make us better at defeating Meteion by following this course of action by making us more susceptible to manipulating Dynamis and knowing hardship so we wouldn't succomb to despair.

And you know, that would be a good justification to why she sundered us, making us more resilient to despair. But it's not like the sundered are immune, as seen by all the creatures flying around in Thavnair, or the Blasphemies all around the world. Some Ancients didn't succomb to it either, since they actually summon Guardian forces without problem, or Zodiark. Not every Ancients' creation magicks went awry, showing some resilience to her. What then, did sundering us prepared us for?

The story suggest otherwise, they were not willing to look at anything else nor listen to Venat's faction and they forced her hand.

She says she means to follow the plan, and not trust the convocation or anybody. This is what we don't agree on. Let's quote her dialog after Ktisis, before we go back to our time :

In spite of this, we cannot let the report that set this calamity in motion become common knowledge. Where the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.
I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe. Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come. Quite the dilemma... which is why I must work independently of the Convocation. Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes' challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist.

So no, she didn't even try to work with the Convocation because she didn't believe her own race to be up to the challenge. She didn't give them a chance, and plotted with her few trusted people instead.
What you accuse the convocation and the overall Ancient society of doing, is actually Venat's sin: she refused to consider another course of action but her own.

[Lyth]

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot.

As for entelechies? An entelechy (telos = end) merely makes ambient emotion manifest as dynamis. It's the same reason why Meteion enjoys candied apples despite never eating one. The Endsinger experiences the ambient emotions of others as if they were her own, and turns that into something tangible. That's why she speaks for those civilizations who have previously died, just before the final fight in Ultima Thule. In order to challenge her and transform her realm, the Scions have to bring the power of their own inner feelings to bear against the ambient emotion of the place. To override despair with hope, and fear with joy.

This isn't an issue of pride. Meteion was the perfect weapon against the Amaurotians. This is a boss fight that they were designed to lose.

[Iscah]

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

Why are you referring to our character as Azem? We aren't, and Azem is a separate distinct character, so using one's name for the other just makes statements confusing.

An entelechy (telos = end)

I don't know the full translation for the word, but that doesn't sound right. What does an "end" have to do with what a psychic empath does?

At a guess I would assume it comes from the "tele" prefix in "telepathy" or other words relating to communicating over distance like telephone, television, etc.

[Veloran]

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot

Considering that the only reason you can breathe there is Thancred's aether, and aether was used to unveil Meteion, and aether was used to stop Meteion's attack for 12,000 years, I think you may just be a little uncreative.

I mean we shot a pathway of aether across the universe just to go there. Why not just shoot more aether at Meteion's location to trap her in a cage of aether she can't escape from, which prevents her from using the universe's dynamis?

[Lyth]

Last I checked, Thancred was struggling to manipulate aether. Dynamis on the other hand...

Also worth remembering that in universe as a whole, there's significantly less aether than dynamis. We just happen to live in a place where there's a lot of the former.

...

We're effectively Azem, given that most Amaurotians that we run into seem to recognize us as such. It just serves as a universal noun for the player character, and WoL/WoD not only cumbersome but applies to other individuals as well.

Entelechy is a Greek term linked with Aristotle's philosophy. An entelechy is something that converts the potential to the actual (i.e. to bring it to completion). The word 'telos' (τέλος) means 'end' or 'completion', which you may recognize from the Endsinger's Aria in Telos/Telomania (a 'telomere' for example, refers to the end parts of linear chromosomes that get discarded on successive replication, and the telencephalon is the front end of the central nervous system.) In the case of Meteion and Elpis flowers, both of which are examples of entelechies, they make manifest the 'potentiality' of ambient emotion. I like etymology, it gives a lot of insight into language.

[Alenore]

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot.

As for entelechies? An entelechy (telos = end) merely makes ambient emotion manifest as dynamis. It's the same reason why Meteion enjoys candied apples despite never eating one. The Endsinger experiences the ambient emotions of others as if they were her own, and turns that into something tangible. That's why she speaks for those civilizations who have previously died, just before the final fight in Ultima Thule. In order to challenge her and transform her realm, the Scions have to bring the power of their own inner feelings to bear against the ambient emotion of the place. To override despair with hope, and fear with joy.

This isn't an issue of pride. Meteion was the perfect weapon against the Amaurotians. This is a boss fight that they were designed to lose.

You don't need to be able to use dynamis to even breathe. We can, because Thancred actually wished it through Dynamis. So you need someone able to use that dynamis to enable everybody else.

Entelechies as described actually don't manifest Dynamis, they are just receptive to Dynamis and are able to affect it in some ways. They don't create it, they interact. That's why Meteion rides on Dynamis, send despair through it, and why the Elpis flowers change colours based on the surrounding dynamis state. It actually matches the real meaning of the world quite well.

Sundered beings are just Ancients with lower aetheric density, that don't cancel out Dynamis as much. Amaurotians alone couldn't fight it alone, but since Venat literally knows that, who could, what exact density (8 times rejoined seems to be a nice mix between dynamis and aether), she could tell literally everybody and either create beings able to fight her, like us, or have some ancients willingly go through sundering instead of forcing the choice on everybody. As to who would choose that fate, over 75% of the planet sacrificed themselves willingly, there should be ample candidates.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This thread should really be merged with the 'Lackluster Endwalker' thread, since it has very little to do with the 6.15 Omega Quests specifically at this point.

The op is talking about the stance taking involved in the quest though, so it very much has quite a lot to do with it.